(AUDIENCE LAUGHING)
IRVING: I don't see any reason
to be tasteful about Auschwitz.
I say to you quite tastelessly
that more women died
on the back seat
of Senator Edward Kennedy's
car at Chappaquiddick
than ever died in
a gas chamber at Auschwitz.
(AUDIENCE LAUGHING
AND APPLAUDING)
DEBORAH:
Holocaust denial rests on
four basic assertions.
Number one.
That there was never any systematic
or organized attempt by the Nazis
to kill all of Europe's Jews.
Number two.
That the numbers are far fewer
than five or six million.
Number three.
That there were no gas chambers
or specially built
extermination facilities.
Number four.
That the Holocaust
is therefore a myth
invented by Jews
to get themselves
financial compensation
and to further the fortunes
of the State of Israel.
War, the deniers say,
is a bloody business.
There's nothing special
about the Jews,
they're not unique
in their suffering.
They're just everyday
casualties of war.
What's the fuss?
Okay, and here's
another question,
how do we know
the Holocaust happened?
Seriously. I'm asking.
How do we prove it?
FEMALE STUDENT:
Photographic evidence?
Not one person in
this room or outside it
has ever seen a photograph
of a Jew inside a gas chamber.
You know why?
Because the Germans made sure
that none were ever taken.
So how do we know?
How do we know
that so many were murdered?
So what's the proof?
Where's the proof?
How strong is it?
(DOG PANTING)
(PANTING)
BOB EDWARDS: (OVER RADIO)
Good morning on Veterans Day,
ceremonies being held today
here in Washington
and across the country.
Here, Mutt.
I'm Bob Edwards.
Today is Friday, November 11th,
and this is NPR's
Morning Edition.
(JULIE MCCARTHY SPEAKING
INDISTINCTLY OVER RADIO)
MAN: Morning, Professor Lipstadt.
DEBORAH: Good morning.
Good morning, Professor.
Morning.
Morning.
LEONIE: Morning.
Speech. Two copies
with corrections.
And Jamie called from NBC.
They still want the
interview about the book.
These go back to the library.
You make copies.
All right.
I'll take this.
DEBORAH: And he needs water.
LEONIE: You want a hand with that?
DEBORAH: I'm okay.
MALE NEWSREADER: And Atlanta
weather on this Veterans Day,
mostly sunny
with clouds creeping in
by the end of the afternoon.
DEBORAH: I do a lot
of these events.
So if you could put
a table at the back.
Right by the door, uh,
perfect as they leave.
GLORIA: Oh, I certainly will.
DEBORAH: Any writer
will tell you, at these events
you always sell 37 books.
(STUDENTS LAUGH)
No matter what size,
uh, the audience.
If it's 50 people, 37 books
and I'm wondering, you know, is it fixed?
Do you think it's fixed?
GLORIA: Thank you
so much, Deborah.
But I think we better
get things started, yeah?
GLORIA: Everyone, it is
my pleasure to introduce
the holder of the Dorot Chair
in Jewish and Holocaust Studies
at Emory University
and the author of
Denying the Holocaust;
The Growing Assault
on Truth and Memory,
Deborah Lipstadt.
(AUDIENCE APPLAUDING)
Whatever the reasons
that people become deniers,
when you look closely,
they often have an agenda
which they won't admit to.
So denial is a pick
to undo the lock
to open the door
to something else.
Yes.
Somebody told me you
don't debate with people
who say the Holocaust
didn't happen.
DEBORAH: Uh, that is correct.
Like I don't debate with
people who say Elvis is alive.
(AUDIENCE LAUGHS)
Talking to people
you don't agree with,
that's democracy, isn't it?
It's cowardly
not to talk to them.
Are you calling me a coward?
Well...
No, no, listen.
I... I don't see it that way.
You can have opinions
about the Holocaust.
You can argue about
why it happened
and how it happened.
But what I won't do is meet
with anyone, anyone,
who says it didn't happen.
Because the Holocaust
happened. It happened.
And that isn't opinion.
That's fact.
And I won't debate fact.
In your book,
why do you continually
denigrate the work
of David Irving?
He's a scholar.
He's discovered all sorts of
primary sources
no one else knew about.
Well, to be honest,
I don't think
I do denigrate him.
Actually, I don't really
think about him that much.
I don't think
he's worth my time.
Yes, sir.
Gentleman in the back.
Professor Lipstadt.
Uh, let me reveal
something to you, Professor.
I am that David Irving about
whom you have been so rude.
Yes, yes, lam he.
And it puzzles me
that you think yourself
qualified to attack me,
given that I have 30 years'
experience in the archives
and my books have
been published by
some of the greatest publishing
houses in the world.
Viking Press, William Morrow,
E.P. Dutton.
I have to conclude
that the reason you don't engage
with people you disagree with
is because you can't and
you might learn some facts.
Facts, Miss Lipstadt,
which don't suit your opinions.
Well? Well?
Mr. Irving,
I will not debate you.
Not here. Not now. Not ever.
So if you would please
just sit down
and you can go and speak
in another room at another time.
You want gullible students
to believe
that there are mounds
of documents
which prove a Holocaust.
You even said that
Hitler ordered it.
Well, I've got $1,000
in my pocket.
Yes, $1,000,
and I'm willing to
give that $1,000
to anyone, anyone,
who can show me a document
that proves that Hitler ordered
the killing of the Jews.
Here it is.
This is not your Q&A.
You can go and
speak somewhere else.
Who pays for you
to write your books?
GLORIA: I need
someone from security.
Who is it that finances
all your expensive trips...
Sit down. Mr. Irving!
Sit down or leave.
GLORIA: Can you deal
with this guy?
Okay, step in.
Ah, Miss Lipstadt
not only won't debate.
She calls security
to stop me from debating.
No, leave it. Leave it. GUARD:
I'm gonna need you to sit down.
IRVING: So be it.
If anybody wants,
I shall be signing my books
after the event.
My books, they're free.
Come and get one.
Thank you.
$1,000! $1,000!
(ALL LAUGHING)
IRVING: An example
of real history.
I hope you find it edifying.
Real history opposed to
manufactured history
and sentimentalized.
Ah.
IRVING: Today I've heard you
telling lies to students.
Speak in another room
at another time.
IRVING: You want gullible
students to believe...
Perfect.
(PANTS)
FORBES-WATSON: Deborah,
I'm glad you've called.
It's wonderful to hear from you.
I'm guessing you got our letter.
DEBORAH: It's why I'm calling.
Irving's just sent us notice of a
suit to be filed in the High Court
because we've failed
to withdraw the book.
The High Court?
The High Court in London.
It's a libel suit.
He's saying you're part of a
concerted worldwide conspiracy
to rob him of his reputation
as a professional historian
and thereby of his livelihood.
I Wish.
(FORBES-WATSON CHUCKLES)
So what's the next step?
Next step is, you tell us
if you want to fight.
(SIGHS)
MALE NEWSREADER: a throng
with 400 skinheads, neo-Nazis
and supporters of
extreme right-wing groups.
The British historian
David Irving,
speaking in German,
addressed the rally...
(IRVING SPEAKING GERMAN)
MALE NEWSREADER: telling
them that Germans no longer
had anything to be ashamed of.
Praising Hitler's deputy,
Rudolf Hess,
as a German hero and a martyr.
(ALL CHANTING)
(CONTINUES SPEAKING GERMAN)
According to
the evidence I've seen,
there were no gas chambers
anywhere at Auschwitz.
I'm dealing with Auschwitz
because it's the capital ship
of the whole Holocaust campaign.
Now if Auschwitz sinks,
and it is, believe me,
a very leaky vessel indeed,
then the whole Holocaust
campaign is in doubt.
DEBORAH: I've decided. I'm taking him on.
LIBBY: What?
Why are you letting
him get to you?
Nine-tenths of these things
don't even get to court.
They don't get to court 'cause
people settle. I can't settle.
The man's a liar.
Someone needs to say so.
What I don't get,
why has he chosen you?
Know what I think?
I have two essential
qualifications for David Irving.
I'm a woman and I'm a Jew.
He gets more bang for his buck.
So this is your book
on denial he's objecting to?
Correct.
Did you even mention Irving?
What did you say about him?
I think I called him
a Hitler partisan
who distorted evidence
in order to reach historically
untenable conclusions.
Okay, well, maybe you better
get yourself lawyered up.
(INDISTINCT CONVERSATIONS)
Here you go.
You must be Anthony Julius.
And you must be
Deborah Lipstadt.
Please. (CLEARS THROAT)
Good of you to come all this way.
It's my pleasure.
And it's nice to combine
our meeting with a lecture.
DEBORAH: Anti-Semitism
in the poetry of T.S. Eliot.
Yes, correct.
I'm looking forward
to hearing you speak.
You're not afraid of
taking on the big boys.
I try not to be.
In fact I was wondering
if it was my interest
in anti-Semitism
which made you consider
me to represent you.
In fact not.
Or if it was the Diana thing.
Uh, no.
Someone I know said to me,
"You need a junkyard dog
"and in England
that's Anthony Julius."
Right, right.
Junkyard dog...
Oh, someone who's gonna be
ferocious in court.
Oh, well, I'm afraid
I don't appear in court.
I prepare the case,
I don't present it.
In Britain,
solicitor and barrister
are two quite
different functions.
And, uh, you mentioned
"the Diana thing." I...
I don't know what that is.
Diana is the...
Is the Princess of Wales.
(CHUCKLES) Well, yes,
I know that.
I just don't know what
your connection to her is.
Uh, no, just, um,
that Diana needed a divorce
and I acted for her.
You represented her?
Yes, yes.
(CHUCKLING) But I thought
you did defamation.
Well, you're quite right.
(STUTTERING) I... I...
I put that point
to Diana herself.
I said, "I've never handled
a divorce case before."
And she said,
"That's all right, Mr. Julius.
"I've never been
divorced before."
Interesting woman.
ANTHONY: Deborah,
I have to warn you
that there's a reason why he's
bringing the case in London.
I wondered about that.
Thank you very much.
You're welcome.
(CLEARS THROAT)
It's to his advantage.
Over here in America,
uh, if you're accused
of defaming someone,
then it's up to them to prove
that what you said is untrue.
In the UK, the reverse is true.
Wait. I have to prove
what I said was true?
Mmm. Correct. Yes, but
I'm the innocent party.
A man accuses you of something
and it's your job
to prove he's wrong?
It's against natural justice.
In the US there's
a presumption of innocence.
Yeah, not in the UK.
Tricky, isn't it?
So what do you know
about Mr. Irving?
Well, I've read
every word he's written.
I know some of
the personal stuff.
His father abandoned him
when he was four.
He fell in love with Hitler
when he was eight.
His brother said he used to run
around bombed-out buildings in London
during the Blitz shouting,
"Heil Hitler."
He's self-educated.
Extremely proud of it.
He learned his German
working in a factory.
I hear it's perfect.
Yeah. How's yours?
Adequate.
He wants it both ways,
Mr. Irving.
He wants to be the brilliant
maverick, the provocateur
who comes along and reinvents
the Second World War.
But he also wants respect,
the respect of his colleagues
in the club.
England's a club, Deborah,
and he wants to join.
But he's an anti-Semite.
You'd be amazed how many military
historians see that as just a detail.
They see him
as a serious historian
who happens to see things
from Hitler's point of view.
Yeah, but it's not a detail.
You know, I think it's at the center
of everything he thinks and does.
So do I. Yeah. He's a liar
and a falsifier of history.
Yes, and this may be
the chance to say so.
My mother named me Devorah.
You know what it means.
Leader. Defender
of her people.
Warrior.
There was an expectation
when I was a kid.
My mother always said
there was gonna be an event.
That I was picked out.
I was chosen.
Well, here it is.
(MUSIC PLAYING)
Good morning.
I think we're expected.
(MUMBLING)
Goodness me. Oh. Ah.
Ah, yes, hello,
delighted to see you.
I'm David Irving.
Here, take Jessica, please.
Darling, Daddy's just going
to be busy for a minute.
Here we are.
A little treat for you.
Yes, open and...
(PLASTIC COVER RUFFLING)
What's it going to be?
A red one. Ooh-oh-oh.
Darling. Bye-bye.
You must be, uh, bringing me
Miss Lipstadt's documents.
JAMES: Yes.
That's everything that
contributed to her analysis.
The full extent of her research.
(MUSIC STOPS)
IRVING: You must be
her representatives.
Yes. I'm James Libson
and, uh, this is Miss Tyler.
She's our paralegal.
Paralegals indeed.
David against Goliath, already.
You must work with the,
uh, famous Mr. Julius?
JAMES: Yes.
Gonna be a fascinating
encounter, don't you think?
Fascinating.
You see, as I see it,
it's academia versus the rest.
Remember,
the greatest historians
have never been academics.
We're outsiders.
Cato, Thucydides,
Gibbon, Churchill...
I field a very strong team.
Perhaps you'd like a cup of tea?
Uh, no, thank you. There's just
one more thing before we leave.
You keep a diary?
Yes, yes, um...
We'd like to apply
to include the diary
in the process of discovery.
Hmm.
You... You're smiling.
Well, I don't much
fancy the prospect
of Miss Lipstadt poring over
my private writings.
Oh, no, no. Access would
be limited to us,
the legal team only.
Come.
I've kept a diary for 20 years.
I promise, I've nothing to hide.
But I doubt if even Goliath
has the resources
to read between 10
and 20 million words.
(SOFT SIGH)
(INDISTINCT CONVERSATION)
MALE REPORTER: And straightaway
you can see that perhaps tonight,
uh, Gareth Southgate
could be the toast of Rio,
'cause Villa are 2-1 up
at the home of the league
leaders, Leeds United.
Let's get the latest
on that now. Harry Gration.
GRATION: Yes, Ray,
the new century
and a miracle has
just about happened.
Two goals from Gareth Southgate
have given Villa
a richly deserved...
(THUNDER RUMBLES)
All right. That's five...
CABBIE: Yes. No,
that's too much. I need...
Okay.
Lovely.
Have a nice day. Bye.
Cheers, then.
Oh, thank you.
(RAIN PATTERING)
(INDISTINCT CHATTER)
(KNOCKING)
ANTHONY: Ah, here she is!
Here she is.
The client. The defendant.
All the way from Atlanta.
Anthony.
You sure you got enough people?
(LAUGHS)
Well, we'll introduce you
to everyone as we go.
But for the moment,
everybody, Deborah Lipstadt.
Say good morning.
ALL: Morning, Deborah.
Morning. I'm, uh, Richard Evans.
How do you do?
Hello.
How are you?
Richard is, uh, Professor of
Modern History at Cambridge.
Yes, I know. I know.
I asked for you specifically.
Oh, yes, of course.
Well, uh, Richard is gonna be one
of our eight expert witnesses.
It's a pleasure to meet you.
It's an honor.
Anthony. ls that a...
ls that a note
from the Princess?
Uh, yes, yes, His, yes, yes.
Hoping for
a similar result with you.
You wanna do to
the Holocaust deniers
what you did to the monarchy?
Um... Yeah. Sort of.
Well, I think we should argue
that David Irving
is not a real historian.
Oh, right. Well,
we'll be sure to
take that on board.
Thank you so much.
James. James is gonna talk you
through your legal options.
I'm, uh... I'm James Libson.
I work with Anthony.
We've spoken.
Yes, yes, yes. Carry on.
JAMES: So normally
there are, uh, three routes
that any libel defender
can take, okay?
So, first of all,
you can argue that
Irving is misinterpreting
the offending words.
DEBORAH: Mmm-hmm. However, since
at one point in your book
you say that Irving seems to conceive
of himself as continuing Hitler's work,
I don't think we can say
he's misinterpreting anything.
I don't think we can.
Nor can we take
the second route,
which would be just to say
that the offending words
aren't as offensive
as Irving makes out.
Oh, we can't take that route.
JAMES: No, they're offensive.
I hope so.
God knows I tried to be.
(ALL CHUCKLE) Yeah. So really it does
just leave us with this one option.
We call this
the atom bomb defense.
That's the one
we're gonna go for.
We plead justification.
So even if the words
are defamatory,
they are still
nevertheless true.
Quite. Not every word. It
doesn't have to be every word.
We can get some things wrong.
But we do have to prove,
what we call
"the sting" of the libel.
We argue that Irving deliberately
subordinated the truth
in order to propagate
anti-Semitism
and engender sympathy
for the Third Reich.
ASSISTANT: More coffee?
ANTHONY: No, thank you.
Yeah.
ANTHONY: Um...
We are still left with the special
problem that we have in the UK
that the burden of proof
lies with the accused.
Um, I'd like you to listen to Laura.
Have you met Laura?
Miss Lipstadt.
Hello.
ANTHONY: Uh, Laura's 23.
Uh, it's her first case.
We've just been discussing this very point.
Attack it, Laura.
We feel... Anthony feels,
oddly in this particular case,
the peculiarity
of the British law
can actually work to our advantage.
Yes. Say.
LAURA: The first reaction
everyone has
when they hear about
this trial is horror.
DEBORAH:
More like disbelief. I mean,
a court of law has to be a
lousy place to judge history.
I must agree, as a historian.
They say, "My God,
are you serious?
"You sit down in a court and
some pompous English judge
"rules on whether
the Holocaust happened?"
And let's think about this.
What if we lose? Huh?
It suddenly becomes acceptable,
it becomes respectable
to say the Holocaust
didn't happen?
Has anyone thought about
what that will mean?
But the wonderful thing is, you
see, if we play this right,
it's not going to be Irving
putting the Holocaust on trial.
No. It's going to be us
putting Irving on trial.
Laura's right.
Thank you.
Laura's very sound on this.
And if we focus on his lies,
and, equally important,
his motives for lying,
there's absolutely no reason we should have
to produce eyewitnesses to these horrors.
(STUTTERS) Wait a minute.
What do you mean,
that the survivors won't appear?
No, no, no.
No, we don't want them to.
You don't want their testimony?
ANTHONY: No.
Under no circumstances.
Why not? Why the hell not?
Because even to
let survivors appear
would be to legitimize
his right to question them.
Can I say something
before you go any further
with this strategy?
Yeah, please do.
You once said to me that this
trial might have implications
for the whole
of the Jewish people.
Now you're saying you won't
allow the Jews to speak?
JAMES: Right,
I'll explain the thinking
just so you
understand the thinking.
Yes, please, I would love
to understand the thinking.
We believe that
Irving is planning
on being what we call
a litigant in person.
He plans to conduct
his own case.
What do you mean?
He's not hiring lawyers?
JAMES: No. No, it'll be just him.
Imagine that.
David Irving, international
Holocaust denier,
finally getting his hands
on a survivor. Imagine it.
The hurt. The damage.
The insult.
It's unthinkable.
He's not gonna have that.
I won't allow it.
I won't allow that to happen.
(CLEARS THROAT)
What are you gonna allow?
He keeps a diary.
He has done for years.
JAMES: He told us
he had nothing to hide,
but we still had to subpoena
him to get hold of it.
What, you've spoken
to him in person?
JAMES: Yes, yes, we have.
(CHUCKLES)
Deborah, the first rule of a good
defense is a strong offense.
First rule?
First rule of litigation,
whether you're prosecuting
or defending,
always run your case
as if you're prosecuting.
(CHUCKLES) It's a good rule.
So that's why Laura
is leading this group of researchers here.
They joined last week.
ANTHONY: And they're gonna be
combing through all the diaries,
uh, locking in particular for any
contact with right-wing groups.
Neo-Nazis, skinheads,
anti-Semites, SS revival groups,
all kinds of assorted riffraff.
And, just as important,
Professor Evans here,
with his, um, his two
able graduate students,
Nik Wachsman and Thomas, uh...
Thomas Skelton-Robinson.
(LAUGHS)
EVANS: My team will be
doing the historiography.
Examining every published word
Irving ever wrote.
Checking sources,
comparing editions.
Generally testing the
reliability of his history.
NIK: You can't imagine
what fun we're having.
THOMAS: We're gonna end up with
a charge sheet of inaccuracies
as long as your arm. (LAUGHS)
One mistake after another.
We think it'll take
about a year. Full-time.
Well, I'm glad that you guys
have got it all sewn up.
ANTHONY: (CHUCKLES) We aim to.
Okay, well, thanks
very much, everyone.
(THUNDER RUMBLES)
As you know, uh,
we had been planning to
do everything for free.
But given the mounting
scale of the thing,
I think we may need to revisit
the question of charges.
Of course, if we lose,
the firm will be happy
to carry the cost.
But we will need some support.
So you are allowing me
to do something?
Um, I get to go fundraise?
Uh...
Yes, yes, if, um...
Whatever you can do.
(SNIFFS)
ROGER: I think people here do
have concerns about the trial.
The community's very keen
to support you.
ALL: Mmm-hmm.
I'm glad to hear it.
But we're also interested
to know what you're thinking.
Mr. Julius is
a very brilliant young man.
He is.
Can we speak frankly?
Please, please.
There's... There's some fear you
may have fallen under his spell.
JANINE: You won't be
the first woman
to be attracted
to his intellect.
Diana.
(ALL LAUGH)
So far, I've raised, um,
most of my funds back home.
Was that easy?
DEBORAH: It wasn't difficult.
Not as difficult as in London,
is that what you're saying?
There's a principle
and I've stuck to it.
No single source of finance.
There was one man, he offered
to pay for the whole thing.
But when the history of this
moment comes to be written,
I think it's important
many people gave, not one.
ROGER: You talk about history.
Look at it from
our point of view.
We live with David Irving.
He's British.
And he's a has-been.
What's a trial gonna do?
It's gonna give him
a new lease of life.
Well, I can't help that
because I didn't bring
the prosecution.
He did.
No,
but you could prevent the
whole thing from happening.
DEBORAH: HOW would I do that?
Settle.
I mean it.
Sign some piece of paper.
Is that so terrible?
He's never gonna
give you Auschwitz, okay,
but, then, he's...
He's David Irving.
We've lived with worse.
And what would you
want me to settle for?
Four million dead? Three? One?
What number would you
be comfortable with?
Here in England, you may
like appeasement, but I don't.
I don't think you should be
using a word like appeasement.
No? Then what word
should I use?
All we're saying,
beware of Anthony Julius.
He does these things
for his own glory.
Other women have been
in his pocket
and found it an uncomfortable
place to be.
(LAUGHS) Oh, well, if it's
pockets we're talking about,
maybe you can explain why the British
find theirs so hard to open.
(RABBI BRENNER LAUGHS)
FEMALE REPORTER: The area
forecast for the next 24 hours.
(EXHALES SHARPLY) Viking,
North and South Utsire, 40.
Southwesterly,
veering northwesterly,
6 to gale 8,
perhaps severe gale 9 later.
Rain, wintry showers,
moderate or full...
(PANTING)
(PANTING)
DEBORAH: I had
a hellish night last night.
I couldn't sleep.
I was so angry.
Really? Why?
I had dinner last
night with some
leaders of the Jewish community.
ANTHONY: Oh,
the community, huh?
And did the community tell you it would
suit them better if you dropped the case?
DEBORAH: I was defending you.
I'm sure you did
a very good job.
Maybe you should
take it up professionally.
DEBORAH: They think you took
this case for your own glory.
Glory? Gosh. I hadn't
thought about glory.
Glory? Fascinating. So what
did they give you to eat?
(KEYS CLACKING)
I don't understand this thing, I really
don't. ANTHONY: Oh, here we are.
Richard Rampton,
Deborah Lipstadt.
Ah!
"'Tis the author
of our misfortune."
Please, please, please, come in.
Come in and warm yourself.
Hi.
Hello.
Richard will be
your leading counsel.
I've explained to
Deborah the difference
between barrister and solicitor.
Our legal system seems forbidding
but it works, I think.
If your legal system worked,
I wouldn't be in this mess.
I don't mind Dickensian,
it's Kafkaesque I'm worried about.
(CHUCKLES)
And this is our junior
counsel, Heather Rogers.
How are you?
Hi, Heather.
Look, I've....
I've just opened up
this rather
decent bottle of red.
Hope you don't mind plastic?
No, Richard,
I'm not gonna drink.
I haven't eaten.
And Deborah hasn't slept.
No, I'll taste the wine.
Why not?
Everything else is
being decided for me.
(CHUCKLES)
Yes, so Heather and I have been
introducing ourselves to the subject.
Hmm. I can see that.
A little light reading.
DEBORAH: Oh, is this you?
You catch fish?
Yes, I do.
(LAUGHS)
And how's your German?
Ah, you see?
Just like a barrister.
Go straight to my weak point.
Um, well, I know the libretto
to The Magic Flute.
That's, uh... That's all
the German I have.
It's probably not very useful
in our forthcoming encounter.
Anyway, cheers.
Cheers.
Cheers, Heather.
Yes, I was going to get on
with my Life of Mozart,
but I shall have to postpone.
Again. (GRUNTS SOFTLY)
Richard is the most skillful
advocate in the country.
I don't mind saying it.
Yes, well,
in this case I wish I...
I wish I thought
skill were enough.
DEBORAH: What else
do you need?
A rarer quality.
Such as?
Appetite.
Plainly, I shall have
to go to Auschwitz
and I would be very grateful
if you would accompany me.
Why do you need
to go to Auschwitz?
Legal reasons.
(CAMERA CLICKING)
(SIGHS)
DEBORAH: ls he coming?
He wants us here, and then
he doesn't show up.
He's late, that's all.
He's often late.
Is he late for court?
(BREATHING HEAVILY)
(EXHALES)
RICHARD: Morning, everyone.
You must be Professor Van Pelt?
Lam.
Good. So, uh, let's
get down to business.
Heather. Deborah.
I suggest we start
by taking a walk
around the perimeter fence.
Yeah, I just did that.
Good. Then let's
look at the plans. Omer?
I want you to understand
the scale of the operation.
What we are looking at here
is one of the largest
and most efficient killing
machines in human history.
Yeah. Yes, we know what it is.
It's how we prove what it is,
that's what we're interested in.
We're not here on a pilgrimage,
we're preparing a case.
(SOFT CHUCKLE) Okay.
These are the remains
of Crematorium ll.
The buildings were deliberately
demolished by the Germans
in the autumn of 1944
to destroy the evidence
of what they did here.
They dynamited them again
one week before
the end of the war.
These steps led down
into the undressing room.
The Olre drawings, please.
David Olre was
a French artist. A survivor.
He was able to draw
a lot of what he saw here.
He made a drawing
of this arrangement here.
These are the steps
in the drawing.
(WIND WHOOSHING)
Then they were led through here,
past a sign that said,
"To the Baths"
and into the gas chamber...
Here.
Please watch your step.
Tread carefully.
This is a shrine.
What we are standing on here
is all that remains
of the gas chamber itself.
This was the roof.
The chamber was
right under here.
Under our feet.
The doors were locked and
cyanide crystals, Zyklon-B,
were poured in on them
through holes in the roof.
One, two, three, four.
(FAINT SCREAMS)
OW! Shit.
(GROANS)
It... It's okay.
VAN PELT: Now here are
the delousing chambers.
Typhus was a terrible
problem in the camp
and the lice that carried it
had to be destroyed.
Right, now we get to it.
So we need to
talk about Leuchter.
Yes, I'm coming to Leuchter.
Yeah.
VAN PELT: This building was used to
delouse the prisoners' clothing.
They used Zyklon-B
for that, too.
To kill the lice.
RICHARD: We know that?
Yes.
RICHARD: For sure?
You have proof?
We can't take
anything for granted.
I need to see the proof.
VAN PELT: Yes,
I can give you proof.
However, in February 1988,
a Holocaust denier called Ernst
Zundel sent Fred Leuchter,
an engineer and self-styled
execution expert from America,
to test in different
parts of the camp
for evidence of poison gas
in the brickwork.
Traces of hydrogen cyanide, HCN.
The blue stains here
and here.
He came with a chisel?
VAN FELT: That's fight.
And he hacked away...
Correct.
Illegally,
without any permission
from the authorities,
and then he smuggled the pieces
out of Poland in his suitcase,
wrapped in his dirty underwear.
Be that as it may.
We can criticize his methods,
but it's his conclusions
we have to discredit.
VAN PELT: He found
higher levels of HCN
here in the delousing chambers
than he did in
the gas chambers themselves.
From this he concluded that
no human beings
were killed at Auschwitz.
Only...
Only lice were killed.
Why are we talking
about Leuchter?
I mean, he's really not worth
the paper he's written on.
Well, so you say.
Now say why.
I'll tell you why.
Because of course there was a
higher concentration in here.
It takes 20 times more cyanide
to kill lice than it
does human beings.
Twenty times! Just
Leuchter didn't know that.
RICHARD: Oh, this whole thing
is infuriating.
I know.
It beggars belief.
Why has there not been a proper
scientific study of this whole site?
By reputable scientists?
Fifty years since the fact?
I mean, it's ridiculous.
Where's the proof?
Where's the evidence?
I need to know that.
You know what? This is a place
where you show respect.
Whoever you are,
you show respect.
I have to ask
some more questions.
Would you be happier outside?
What proof is there
that Leuchter's conclusions
are wrong?
(DEBORAH BREATHES DEEPLY)
I thought we weren't
gonna try the Holocaust.
We're not. I thought we
weren't gonna debate,
"Did the Holocaust happen?"
That's what we agreed, Heather.
That's what we agreed.
He's asking questions,
that's all.
He has to ask questions.
This isn't about memorializing,
it's about forensics.
God full of mercy
who dwells in the heights,
provide a sure rest upon
the Divine Presence's wings,
in the realm of the holy,
pure and glorious...
VAN PELT: Pure and glorious,
BOTH: whose shining
resembles the sky.
(BOTH SINGING IN HEBREW)
(TRAM BELL RINGING)
(TRUMPET PLAYING)
RICHARD: I, um,
bought you a drink.
I thought you might need it.
Thanks. I think I do.
You get what you wanted
from the visit?
Deborah, you mustn't
characterize me
as being without feelings.
I have feelings.
What did you feel today?
Oh.
Shame.
I have this terrible fear
that if I'd have been ordered
to do some of the things
we saw today that...
That I would have agreed.
Out of weakness.
Well, that is honest
of you to say so.
Well, that's how it is.
The world is full of cowards
and I've always had
this nervous feeling that...
That I was one of them.
There's this line from Goethe,
"Der Fiege droht nur,
wo er sicher ist."
It means,
"The coward only threatens
"when he feels secure."
I thought you didn't speak German.
Hmm.
You learned German
in the last year?
Well, I had to master
all these documents.
Irving had a 40-year
start on me,
so I had to catch up.
Did you?
No. (CHUCKLES)
You know, you haven't
taken my statement yet.
No. No, I...
(CLEARS THROAT) Why is that?
No. Why? Anthony
didn't talk to you?
Well, um, we made
a couple of decisions.
Uh, the first was that we don't
want to put this case to a jury.
We think it'll be safer
to put it to a judge.
A single judge?
Yeah.
What, the whole thing
decided by one man?
Is that a good idea?
Well, we were worried
about the kind of antics
that Irving might get up
to with an audience of 12.
I'm surprised it's our choice.
Well, it isn't.
He has to agree.
Why would he do that?
We have a notion.
Mmm.
And the other one?
I'm sorry?
Well, you said
a couple of decisions.
Yes, well, um...
We decided,
Anthony and I, that, um,
it would be better
if you didn't testify.
Excuse me?
Well, that's it. We...
We don't believe
you should testify.
Why?
Because you don't trust me?
No. No, not at all.
You think I'm gonna
get emotional?
Well, I... After today...
Richard, we were at Auschwitz.
Let me remind you that I teach,
I lecture,
I talk to the press...
I know.
I order ideas.
It's what I do.
It's what I'm good at.
You... You don't need
to protect me.
No, we're not protecting you.
We're protecting our case.
Our strategy is to keep the focus
on Irving and Irving alone.
It's not a test of your
credibility, it's a test of his.
You don't think I'm good enough.
No, no, no.
I didn't say that at all.
Everything you have to say,
you've said in your book.
Our task is to starve Irving,
and putting you in a witness
box would feed him.
This case is happening to you,
but it's not about you.
This man hates me.
He's coming for me.
And when someone
comes after you,
you take 'em on.
You know what people will say?
Yes, I think I do.
They'll say I'm a coward.
That I was too afraid
to go on the stand
because I thought I would lose.
Yeah.
That's what they'll say. And
you want me to live with that?
It's the price you pay
for winning.
ANTHONY:
Uh, just one question, sir.
TRENCH: What is it?
ANTHONY: Uh, on our side,
we're beginning to feel
that for the layman
this particular subject
may represent
an impossible challenge.
I see. You're asking to
dispense with a jury? We are.
Have you asked
Mr. Irving his views?
Mr. Irving?
Well, um...
Perhaps before
Mr. Irving speaks?
TRENCH: Yes, go ahead.
We all know Mr. Irving
has devoted his life
to the study of the Third Reich.
I admit myself to having
sometimes struggled
with the demands
of the material.
I wonder if Mr. Irving
really believes it's fair
to ask the regular Joe or Joan
who walks in from the street
to grasp in a mere few weeks
what he himself has taken
a lifetime to master.
I agree.
The issues before the court
are sufficiently complex
to require the attention
of a learned judge,
and too complex
to confront a jury with.
Are you sure, Mr. Irving?
Quite sure.
Trial by judge
alone it is, then.
Thank you very much, sir.
(INDISTINCT CHATTER)
(REPORTERS SPEAKING
INDISTINCTLY)
REPORTER 1: This morning
we'll see the beginning
of an extraordinary case
in which...
REPORTER 2: question the evidence
for the mass killing of Jewish people
at Auschwitz during
the Second World War.
Including the movie
director, Steven Spielberg,
are paying
for Miss Lipstadt's defense.
REPORTER 3:
Mr. Irving is rumored to have
a list of around
4,000 contributors...
REPORTER 4: Miss Lipstadt's
book, in which she refers
to Mr. Irving as
a Holocaust denier.
Morning, Deborah. Morning.
I didn't want you
to go in alone.
Sweet of you.
It's not sweet at all.
I just wanted to make sure
you didn't speak.
It's a short statement.
No, no, no. This way.
Come on.
REPORTER: Professor!
Julie McCarthy, NPR.
A quick word.
We need to hear your voice.
DEBORAH: It's Julie McCarthy, NPR.
We need to hear your voice.
Just a quick word.
Lying Jewish bitch!
You think it all finished
with Hitler? It didn't.
We know which hotel you're in.
We know your room.
You think you're safe.
Well, you're not.
(SHOUTING CONTINUES)
IRVING: Morning. Morning,
everyone. Morning, everyone.
Good morning, everyone.
I'm looking forward to this.
May I say a few words?
Well, obviously...
(SHOUTING AND CLAMORING
CONTINUES)
Do you see that? He's gonna be
all over the front pages.
Deborah, there's only one person
that matters and that's the judge.
If you don't speak in court
and you do speak to the press,
the judge is gonna be
furious and with just cause.
And we both know what
would solve that problem.
Another thing. You jog
the same way every day.
Don't.
What are you saying?
I'm not saying anything.
I'm just saying,
vary your route. Come on.
Vary my route?
Stay with her.
ANGRY MAN: What, you think
you can get away with it?
JANET:
Let's have some order!
Please. Press in
the public gallery.
Front two rows.
Take the door on the left.
Hello, Nik.
Janet
General public upstairs. General
public upstairs. Thank you.
Let the defendant
through, please.
This way, Miss Lipstadt.
Thank you, Clive.
They were lively.
Yes. (CHUCKLES)
How are you? All right?
DEBORAH: Fine, fine.
JANET: Just through here.
This is me?
This is you.
Good morning. Good morning.
MAN 1: Morning, Mr. Irving.
IRVING: Good morning.
MAN 2: Good morning.
IRVING: Morning.
MAN 3: Good morning.
Good morning.
Morning.
Good morning. I'll just
take that for you.
Thank you.
There we are.
As advertised.
David and Goliath.
CLERK: They're ready, my Lord.
(GRAY EXHALES AND
CLEARS THROAT)
(INDISTINCT CHATTER)
(CLOCK CHIMING)
JANET: Silence!
Court rise!
ANTHONY: BOW.
Bow.
(SOFTLY) I'm American.
Everything else but no bowing.
IRVING: My Lord...
I intend to show that far from
being a Holocaust denier,
I have repeatedly
drawn attention
to major aspects
of the Holocaust.
These defendants
have done very real damage
to my professional existence.
By virtue of the activities
of Miss Lipstadt
and those who funded her
and guided her hand,
since 1996
I have seen one fearful publisher
after another falling away from me
and turning their backs
on me as I approach.
My Lord,
if we were to seek a title
for this libel action,
I would venture to suggest
Pictures at an Execution.
My execution.
The word "denier"
is particularly evil.
For the chosen victim
it is like being called
a wife beater or a pedophile.
It is enough for the label
to be attached
for the attachee to
be designated a pariah,
an outcast from normal society.
It is a verbal Yellow Star.
LAURA:
So, what did you think of him?
I thought he was oddly impressive.
Did you?
IRVING:
Well, did you enjoy it?
Look, there he is.
Look, still at it.
DEBORAH: It was confusing. It was like
he already knew all of our questions.
ANTHONY: Well, yes, of course he does.
We sent them to him.
What? You sent him our
questions in advance? What...
Why would you give away
our strategy?
Deborah, there is no strategy.
We're gonna box him in
with the truth.
RICHARD: My Lord,
Mr. Irving calls himself
a historian.
The truth is, however, that
he is not a historian at all.
He is a falsifier of history.
To put it bluntly, he is a liar.
Now, between the publication
of the first edition
of Hitler's War in 1977,
and the second edition in 1991,
Mr. Irving's view
of the Holocaust
underwent a sea change.
In the 1977 version,
he accepted it as historical
truth in all its essentials.
But in the 1991 edition,
all traces of the Holocaust
had disappeared.
So, what are the reasons for
this astounding volte-face?
Well, the principle reason
can be expressed
in one word, Leuchter.
Hmm.
Now, according to Mr. Irving,
the Leuchter report is,
"The biggest caliber shell
"that has yet hit
the battleship Auschwitz."
Unfortunately for Mr. Irving,
the Leuchter report is bunk
and he knows it.
So why did Mr. Irving
embrace the Leuchter report
with such enthusiasm?
Why did he choose
to publish it himself
and even to write
an introduction?
Well, the answer must be
that he wanted it to be true.
After all, if the Holocaust
hadn't happened,
Hitler couldn't have
ordered it or known about it.
And that's the point.
(WHISPERING) Shh. Please.
Please, just...
That was a very good start.
Mmm, I'm glad you're happy.
I saw his face when
you called him a liar.
I don't think he's used
to hearing things like that.
No, I don't think he is.
Excuse me. Miss Lipstadt?
Yes, that's me.
May I speak to you?
Yes. Um, could you give
us a minute, please?
I would like you to come and
meet some of my friends.
Friends with
something in common.
Would you like to sit?
We want to know, how can
you let this happen?
None of us have been called.
We have to be heard.
A trial of the Holocaust
and no witnesses?
How can that be right?
There is a whole group of us.
Deborah, we have to testify.
We have to.
On behalf of the others.
For the dead.
I make you a promise.
The voice of suffering
will be heard.
I promise you that.
I was looking
at Irving all the time.
Yeah, me too. Couldn't
take my eyes off him.
He is kind of
riveting, isn't he?
Oh, I think this could
well become a ritual.
A welcome one, don't misunderstand me.
(ALL LAUGHING)
Deborah? Not for me, thanks.
You know, a very famous Attorney
General once told me a long time ago
that one would become a much
more effective advocate...
Can we talk privately?
RICHARD: after a few
glasses of claret.
(LAUGHTER) And, of
course, sandwiches.
THOMAS: Ah!
NIK: Bravo.
HEATHER: They're always
in the cupboard.
RICHARD: I have, uh,
cheese sandwiches...
I just talked to a survivor.
Yeah, well, that's likely.
There's several
of them in the court.
Deborah, we're not gonna
discuss this again.
Why not?
I've explained to you.
Well, tell me again, Anthony.
Whatever you say, the
survivors are not on trial.
That's the end of it.
They confuse the issue.
Oh, so you can look
a survivor in the face
and you can tell her she's
not allowed to speak?
You can do that? Because I can't.
I can't do it.
ANTHONY: Deborah, these people
have been through hell.
I understand that.
After all these years,
they haven't been able
to process the experience.
I understand that, too.
But a trial, I'm afraid,
is not therapy.
It's not my job to give
emotional satisfaction
to a whole group of people
who can never forget
what happened to them.
You think they wanna
testify for themselves?
It's not for themselves
they wanna testify.
They wanna give voice to the
ones that didn't make it.
To their families,
their friends.
Anthony, I... I promised that
their voice would be heard.
I promised.
Well, then you'd better
go back out there
and break your promise.
(DOOR CLOSES)
(BIRDS CHIRPING)
(INDISTINCT CHATTER)
IRVING: Professor Van Pelt.
May I first of all
welcome you to our country
and say what a great
pleasure I had
in reading your book
on Auschwitz.
You were deeply moved to
visit the actual location?
More than moved.
I was frightened.
It's an awesome responsibility.
IRVING: Professor,
would you agree
it is the duty of historians
to remain completely
unemotional?
One's duty is to be unemotional,
to be objective,
but one's duty, I think,
is to remain human
in the exercise.
IRVING: Can you explain
to the court, please,
why it is in the very earliest
references to Auschwitz,
published by the Russians
after the capture of the
camp in January 1945,
there is no reference whatsoever
to the discovery
of gas chambers?
Uh, I would need to see the
documents you refer to.
Well, that's fair, I think.
It is fair, my Lord.
Your report quotes extensively
from firsthand testimony
of a man called Tauber.
Yes. Uh, Tauber was
a Sonderkommando
in Crematorium ll.
He helped with the prisoners.
He was interrogated
at the end of May 1945.
And, in his document,
what does Tauber tell us about
the liquidation procedure?
The... The simulation,
please?
What he describes is the underground
arrangement of the crematorium.
The entrance was through
an undressing room.
The prisoners went
into a corridor,
and then through
a door on the right
into the gas chamber.
The door was closed hermetically
by means of iron bars
which were screwed tight.
The roof of the gas chamber
was supported by concrete
columns and wire mesh pillars.
IRVING: Professor?
In your simulation,
that is the roof
in this big photograph here?
Uh, yes.
IRVING:
It is the self-same roof?
VAN FELT: Yes.
Uh, Tauber says
the sides of these pillars,
which went up through the roof,
were of heavy
wire mesh, like this.
What does it mean
when it says that
the pillars
went up through the roof?
Went up to the roof, presumably?
Yes, but they popped
out, uh, above the roof.
The pillars "popped out"?
VAN PELT: The pillars went
through a hole in the roof
and the earth, which was
arranged on top of the roof,
and then there was a little,
kind of, chimney on top of that.
IRVING: What was
the purpose of that,
architecturally speaking?
Because these
were hollow pillars
and these were the pillars
in which the
crystals of Zyklon-B
were inserted into
the gas chamber.
My Lord, you can see the layout.
You can see the pillars with
the wire mesh columns
next to them.
You have drawn in
those wire mesh columns,
have you not?
In the sketches
and on the computer?
One of my students did, yes.
But the wire mesh
is an addition,
it is not based on drawings
and blueprints, is it?
It is based on the
drawing made by the man
who actually made these pillars.
Michael Kula.
In the camp workshop.
IRVING: And this hole
in the roof, or these holes,
how many wire mesh columns
were there? Four?
Uh... One, two,
three, four.
(LAUGHS)
Professor Pelt, we are wasting
our time, really, are we not?
You yourself have
stood on that roof
and looked for those holes
and not found them.
Our experts have stood on
that roof and not found them.
My Lord, there are no
holes in that roof.
There never were any holes.
Therefore they cannot have poured
cyanide capsules through that roof.
You will appreciate,
if there had been
those holes in that roof,
which are the cardinal linchpin
of the defense in this action,
they would have found them by now.
They have not found them!
And all the eyewitnesses
on whom he relies
are therefore exposed
as the liars that they are.
(RUMBLING)
Uh, my Lord,
it is now 3:56.
Unless Mr. Rampton
wishes to say
something to
repair the damage...
My Lord, may I respond to this?
You may.
But not until tomorrow.
JANET: Court rise.
(RUMBLING)
(REPORTERS CLAMORING)
ANTHONY: Just walk.
Say nothing. The trial took
an extraordinary turn...
Why did Rampton drop it?
Why did he let it go?
Deborah, there are
journalists everywhere.
Just look straight ahead
and keep walking, please.
Richard, can we get
some of your time, please?
I don't have much time now.
It won't take long.
We have an unhappy client.
Okay, yes.
Deborah, this is disastrous.
I'm sorry. I'm going to
have to take her. I know.
I'm so sorry.
REPORTER 3: a major
setback for the defense
who are now at the bottom
of an uphill struggle.
Let's all calm down, please.
Try not to panic.
Irving pulled a rabbit
out of the hat at 3:55.
He thinks it's clever.
It isn't clever.
No, it's not clever.
It's amateur dramatics.
It doesn't mean
it's not effective.
Richard is gonna
deal with this tomorrow.
Look at these, look at these.
Not that one.
I've looked at them.
I've seen them.
I know them. Look.Look.
Perfectly clear.
The Olere drawings. The US
Air Force aerial photo.
And there they are.
I know these photos.
I don't need to look at them.
Holes in all of them, Deborah.
Look, look, look.
Same shape, same pattern.
One, two, three, four.
DEBORAH: And you know
what Irving is gonna say?
Irving's gonna say,
"They're not holes.
"They're shadows,
they're forgeries,
"they're glitches
on the negative,
"they're paint cans
on the roof."
Yes, and it's our job
to prove otherwise.
But how are you gonna do that?
Anyway, it's too late.
It's already out there.
It's in the press.
ANTHONY: Oh, it's in the press?
So what it's in the press?
DEBORAH: So Irving got
what he came for.
You know, he wanted
headlines, he got 'em.
"No holes,
no Holocaust!"
He wanted a catchy
phrase, he's got it.
It's gonna... It's gonna
spread like a virus.
LAURA: Do you want tea?
DEBORAH: No, I don't want tea.
Just asking.
Don't you see what he's doing?
He's making it
respectable to say
that there are
two points of view.
People are gonna
see the news now
and they're gonna think,
"Oh, okay.
"Some people think there were
gas chambers at Auschwitz,
"and, oh, this is interesting,
some people don't."
Yes, but Deborah, you know why he
chose Auschwitz in the first place.
DEBORAH: Why he chose Auschwitz?
Because everybody heard of it.
Because of its emotional impact.
No.
Because. I don't know.
What are you getting at?
No. Because it wasn't built
as an extermination camp.
It was built as a labor camp.
I know that.
JAMES: Then it was modified.
Yes, I know that.
That's why he's going after it.
It's a battering ram into
a much bigger subject.
Auschwitz is at the very
center of Holocaust belief,
so Auschwitz is at the very
center of Holocaust denial.
Think about it logically.
It doesn't make any sense
at all what he says.
"No holes, no Holocaust."
He seizes one tiny fact
and because that can't be
physically proved, he says,
"Oh, well, then that throws
everything into doubt.
"The Nazis didn't
do any murdering.
"They didn't do
any murdering at all."
I know that. I wrote
a whole book about it.
ANTHONY: For God's sake...
DEBORAH: I know that.
ANTHONY: It's the same
thing as the Hitler trick.
It's exactly the same thing.
Exactly the same thing!
"Give them $1,000."
DEBORAH: Tell me about it.
I'm the one that he did it to.
You know, if you can't
find a piece of paper
where it says, you know,
"Please murder the Jews,"
it means Hitler never wanted
them to die in the first place.
"Hitler was
the Jews' best friend."
Irving said that!
He actually said that!
I have to go.
Wait a minute! I
wanna say something.
And for once I want you
all to listen to me.
I'm the defendant
and I know the rule.
The rule is
the client instructs.
Well, the client's instructing.
The survivors go on the stand.
And I go on the stand, too.
Gentlemen.
Richard? Where's he going?
Richard?
Did you hear what I just said?
Deborah!
Richard. Richard.
Why is he leaving?
Because he has to prepare.
That's why he's leaving.
He doesn't just
turn up in court.
He devotes his entire day,
every minute of his day,
rigorously, to this case and nothing but.
And that's the point!
No, what you're not getting,
what you're ignoring,
is that we know what
happened at Auschwitz
because there were people
there who actually saw it.
Oh, Deborah, Deborah.
Yes, yes!
With their own eyes.
They're called survivors.
Yes. And put
survivors on the stand
and Irving will humiliate them.
Remember the Zundel trial.
Remember the Exodus trial.
They were torn apart.
Because survivors
don't remember.
Not every detail.
They forget something.
They say a door was on the left,
when actually it was on the right,
and then, wham! Irving's in.
You see? "They're liars, you
can't trust anything they say."
That's it, that's the technique.
Will roll up her sleeve
and show you the tattoo
to prove that, yes,
she was in Auschwitz.
ANTHONY: Do you think
Irving's gonna respect them?
You want that? Holocaust
survivors mocked and humiliated?
You've got to get tasteless.
I shall say,
"Mrs. Altman, how much money
"have you made out of
that tattoo since 1945?"
(AUDIENCE LAUGHS)
You want more of that, do you?
You think that's helpful?
(PANTING)
(OPERA MUSIC PLAYING)
(OPERA MUSIC CONTINUES)
(BELL RINGING IN DISTANCE)
So, now, Mr. Irving,
I will ask you to explain why,
if, as you claim, there were
no gas chambers in Auschwitz,
the gratings taken in 1945
by the Polish authorities
from Morgue 1 in Crematorium
ll were covered in cyanide,
and why the camp's chief
architect, Karl Bischoff,
specifically refers to Morgue 1
as a Vergasungskeller,
a "gassing cellar."
Well?
I am willing to concede
that they did indeed find
in the ventilator gratings
traces of cyanide.
RICHARD: They did?
Yes.
I will also concede
that it was indeed
used as a gassing cellar.
It was?
Yes.
Good. So...
Gassing what?
IRVING: Well, I think
the evidence is clear
that the room was used
as a gassing cellar
for fumigating cadavers.
RICHARD: Fumigating cadavers?
Yes.
RICHARD: Why exactly
do you say that?
That is what mortuaries are for.
In mortuaries you put cadavers.
What is the evidence
that that room
was used for gassing corpses?
That is what it was built for.
GRAY:
I'm sorry, this, uh,
seems a crude question,
but what is the point
of gassing a corpse?
Because, my Lord,
they came in heavily infested
with the typhus-bearing
lice which had killed them.
RICHARD: Did they?
Did they, Mr. Irving?
Did they indeed?
Then please explain to me
why they needed
a gas-proof door
with a peep hole
with double 8mm glass
and a metal grill on the inside?
You will remember at this time
most of Germany
was under the weight
of Royal Air Force
bomber command.
There was a concern
about the need
to build
bomb-tight shelters.
So now it's an air-raid
shelter, is it?
I beg your pardon?
It is either a room for
gassing already dead corpses,
or it's an
air-raid shelter?
IRVING: Did I say either/or?
In early 1943?
An air-raid shelter?
When you know
perfectly well that
the first bombing
raid near Auschwitz
wasn't until late 1944.
And the placing
of this so-called
"air-raid shelter,"
if it was for the SS,
it was a terribly long way from
the SS barracks, wasn't it?
Have you thought of that?
It's two and a half
miles, isn't it?
If there was a bombing raid,
they'd all be dead
before they got there.
But can you really see lots
of very heavily armed men
running the two and a
half to three miles
from the SS barracks to a cellar
at the far end of Birkenau?
You see...
I'm trying to understand
if there was this,
this dual function,
so see if you can help me.
Now, if the corpses
were also gassed there,
then, as I understand it,
they were then
sent to be incinerated?
Yes.
What is the point
in gassing a corpse
that is about to be burnt?
I'm not sure, saying this
off the top of my head, Mr.
Rampton.
I'm not a Holocaust historian,
I'm a Hitler historian.
Then why don't you keep your
mouth shut about the Holocaust?
The truth is, as usual,
Mr. Irving,
you jump in off the board
spouting whatever rubbish
comes into your head
in order to avoid
the obvious conclusion.
This is not because
you're a rotten historian.
It's because you're
a bent one, as well.
(INDISTINCT CONVERSATIONS)
Come in!
RICHARD: Um, forgive me.
I should have rung,
but I thought
it would be interesting
to see where you lived.
Is that all right?
Yes, of course.
Come in, please.
Thank you. Thank you.
It's, uh, very messy.
Well, that's not
going to bother me.
Let's see, the, um, 1995
Pommard les Epenots.
Uh, it's rather special,
I think.
You've had it before, remember?
Oh, uh, yes.
Well, there are glasses here.
Ah, shame.
I rather like plastic.
Still, you can't
have everything.
(GRUNTS)
I like to treat
myself, don't you?
Why should all the bad people
have all the good
things in life?
Like this?
(SIGHS)
You had a good morning. Yes, I did.
I did, didn't I?
I rather think it went my way.
Cheers.
Cheers.
(GLASSES CLINK)
Mmm.
It's paying off.
What is?
Your technique.
That thing you do.
You never catch his eye.
Ah! You've noticed, have you?
Well, what do you think
I've been doing these...
These past weeks?
Please, uh...
Sit.
Oh, thank you.
Yes, well, it's my way of
telling him what I think of him.
I don't look at him. It's
getting under his skin.
I owe you an apology.
I can't think why.
For Auschwitz.
Oh.
I thought you were rude.
I thought you were late.
But now I understand.
You were just... You were
pacing out the distance.
Yes.
Yes, I had to.
Well, I understand
that from today.
Yes, it's a scene of a crime.
I have to go to the site.
You were preparing a case.
You had to be sure.
However disrespectful
you seemed.
However heartless.
(SOFT CHUCKLE)
That's what I do.
I didn't know what to expect.
It was...
It was a brief.
I mean, my previous
brief, believe it or not,
was from McDonald's.
How could Auschwitz be
just another brief?
I am sorry that
perhaps you felt that
that's what it was to me.
Very upsetting to see a
client in such distress.
We didn't mean to
make you unhappy.
I know that.
But I have never trusted anyone
to do anything on my behalf
since I was a child.
And all I have is my
voice and my conscience
and I have to listen to it.
Your conscience?
Yes!
Yes.
They're strange
things, consciences.
Trouble is, what feels best
isn't necessarily
what works best.
I mean, by all means,
stand up, look the
devil in the eye,
tell him what you feel.
Why not? It's very satisfying.
See what happens.
And risk losing.
Not just for yourself.
For the others.
For everyone.
Forever.
Or?
Or...
You know "or."
Stay seated.
Button your lip.
Win.
An act of self-denial.
Do you have any
idea how hard it is
to hand over your conscience
to somebody else?
This is everything I
thought I would never do.
All right.
(SOFT CHUCKLE)
I'm gonna hand mine over
to this, uh, fly-fishing,
wine-drinking
Scotsman.
(BELLS CHIMING)
(RADIO PLAYING)
(SIZZLING)
(MAN SPEAKING
INDISTINCTLY OVER RADIO)
(DOOR BELLS JINGLE)
There you are.
Hello.
DEBORAH: Morning. Here,
let me move this.
Sit down.
What is that?
RICHARD: Ah.
It's black pudding.
It's traditional.
It's made of blood.
And you wanna live until
the end of the trial?
(LAUGHS) Well, you've cheered
up since last night.
I've cheered up
because of last night.
Shutting up's not
gonna be easy but...
Oh, could I have a black pudding
for my friend, please?
(LAUGHS) Ignore him. I
want a bagel, please.
Oh, and not toasted.
Thanks.
Oh, I need this. It's
gonna be a tough day.
Proving intention.
Richard Evans
gave us plenty of places
where Irving got
his facts wrong.
But we have to prove he got
'em wrong intentionally.
He's fighting for his life.
And remember,
he knows the law
as well as we do.
Unless we prove that Irving's
mistakes are deliberate,
we lose.
We lose.
GRAY: Mr. Irving,
the defense are claiming that
you deliberately
falsified evidence
to suit your own
political purposes.
You must address that charge.
We must deal with what we
call "keine Liquidierung-"
Very well. We're looking first
at the November 30th entry.
Am I right?
EVANS: My Lord,
if I may explain the context?
GRAY: Please.
Heinrich Himmler, the Head
of the SS, kept a log
in which he made a record
of every telephone call
he gave and received.
In 1941,
he called Heydrich
from Hitler's bunker
to give him instructions.
After the call,
he wrote some words.
(READING IN GERMAN)
"Jodentransport aus Berlin.
"Keine Liquidierung.
"Jodentransport aus Berlin.
Keine Liquidierung."
Which clearly means,
"The Jew Transport from Berlin.
"No liquidation."
"The Jew Transport," singular,
"from Berlin."
In Hitler's War,
you write something
completely different.
"At 01:30,
Himmler was obliged
"to telephone from Hitler's
bunker to Heydrich
"the explicit order that Jews
were not to be liquidated."
In other words, you
mistranslate the log
so as to pretend that
this order came directly
from Hitler, which it didn't,
they hadn't even met that day,
and that it applied
not to just one particular
trainload of Jews,
but to all Jews
throughout Germany.
And in order to bolster
this false impression,
you omit the word
"Berlin" altogether.
So your claim to have
incontrovertible proof that Hitler tried
to stop the liquidation of the Jews,
as opposed to one particular
trainload of Jews, is false.
You knew that then. You know it now.
It's wrong.
Of course,
if you privately decided
it was a...
A reasonable kind
of mistake to make
when one is reading a new
document for the first time,
you would, uh, you would immediately
tell the court, would you not?
EVANS: Of course, I would.
I do not feel this is a
reasonable mistake to make.
I believe it's deliberate.
Ha!
EVANS: (THROUGH RECORDER)
In Hitler's War,
you write something
completely different.
"At 01:30, Himmler was obliged
"to telephone from Hitler's
bunker to Heydrich
"the explicit order that Jews
were not to be liquidated."
What? Because I'm tired of it.
You didn't even
want to be a lawyer.
The Holocaust, the Holocaust.
(RECORD PLAYER STOPS)
There are other things.
At some point isn't everyone
gonna have to let go?
It... It's an obsession.
How many years?
Are they ever gonna
let go of this grievance?
I think it's rather
more than a grievance.
IRVING: (OVER TV)
I find the whole
Holocaust story utterly boring.
(INDISTINCT CHATTER)
The Jews keep going on
about the Holocaust
because it's the only
interesting thing
which has happened to them
in 3,000 years.
(LAUGHTER) I'm not
interested in the Holocaust,
I don't know anyone who is.
(TV SWITCHES OFF)
RICHARD: And that's an excerpt
from a speech you made
at the Best Western Hotel
in Tampa
on July the 25th, 1998.
I remember speaking,
um, I do not know
what the date was.
You said, "I think 95%
of the thinking public
"find the Holocaust
endlessly boring,
"but they dare not say it
"because it is
politically incorrect."
Uh, Mr. Irving,
next I want to refer you
to a talk you gave
to the Clarendon Club,
whatever that may be,
on the 19th of September, 1992.
Uh, the transcripts. Tab
five, my Lord, page 35.
GRAY: Thank you.
IRVING: (OVER TV) But if there is
one thing that gets up my nose,
I must admit it's this.
When I switch on
my television set
and I see one of them
reading our news to us.
(AUDIENCE LAUGHS)
(REMOTE CONTROL CLICKS)
RICHARD: Mr. Irving, who is the
"them" and who is the "us"?
Trevor McDonald.
McDonald?
A newsreader, my Lord.
A black newsreader.
Well, in fact, this is
a stock speech I used to make.
I used to say,
"In the good old days,
"the announcer would
wear a dinner jacket.
"Now they've got
women reading the news,
"and they have..."
It's just part of
a general speech.
Yes. "It is our news and
they're reading it to me."
If they could have their own news,
which they were reading to us,
I suppose it would be
very interesting.
(LAUGHTER)
But for the time being,
I'd be prepared
to accept that the BBC
should have a
dinner-jacketed gentleman
reading the important news...
(LAUGHTER)
followed by a lady reading
the less important news...
followed by Trevor McDonald
giving us all the latest news
on muggings and drug busts.
(AUDIENCE CHEERING)
RICHARD: "Rest lost in
loud laughter and applause."
Are you not appalled by that?
Not in the least.
This was a witty speech
delivered after dinner to an
audience at a private club.
You were talking to
a bunch of racists.
No, they were not. They were
perfectly ordinary guests...
Ordinary people? Then
why were there cheers?
Well, obviously
they liked the jokes.
Mr. Irving, I think
you might be advised
to have a look
at your own diary,
if you wouldn't mind.
Thirty-eight, please,
Mr. Irving, 38.
Tab 10
of the bundle K4.
"A quiet evening at home.
Jessica..."
Who is Jessica?
IRVING:
My little infant Child.
RICHARD: Yes.
She was nine months
old at the time.
Nine months old
in September 1994.
"Jessica is turning into
a fine little lady.
"She sits very upright
on an ordinary chair,
"a product of our regular
walks to the bank, lam sure.
"On those walks, we sing the
'binkety-bankety-bong' song.
"She stars in a poem
"when half-breed children
are wheeled past."
And then you go into italics.
"I am a baby Aryan
"Not Jewish or sectarian
"I have no plans to marry
"An ape or Rastafarian."
Racist, Mr. Irving?
Anti-Semitic, Mr. Irving?
I do not think so.
RICHARD: Teaching your little
child this kind of poison?
Do you think a nine-month-old
can understand words
spoken in English
or any other language?
This poor little child
has been taught a racist ditty
by her racist
and perverted father.
Have you ever read Edward Lear?
(CHUCKLES)
Hilaire Belloc?
They haven't brought a libel action, Mr.
Irving. You have.
You sued because you said that
we had called you a racist
and an extremist.
Yes,
but I'm not a racist.
RICHARD: Mr. Irving,
look at the words on the page.
(SOFT SCOFF)
Well done, Richard.
That's it.
Racism, anti-Semitism
and the guy's
a Holocaust denier.
I mean, we always said
it was a package deal.
We've got symptoms,
purpose, motive.
I really don't see
what else they'd want.
What did you think, Anthony?
What did I think?
I thought it was
the most boring morning
we've had in court so far.
(LAUGHS) My God, you
love to be contrary.
Well, the man's an
anti-Semite and a racist.
It's like having
shit on your shoe.
You wipe it off.
You don't study it.
Thanks a lot.
You know, my whole
life's been studying it.
(CHUCKLES)
You could hardly accuse
me of being racist.
Among my domestic staff
I've had a Barbadian, a Punjabi,
Sri Lankan, a Pakistani.
And I can tell you, though, they
were all very attractive girls
with very nice breasts.
I'm sorry?
Can you say that again?
RICHARD:
You know what I'm gonna miss?
I'm gonna miss these lunches.
LAURA: Ah.
Me, too, Richard.
Me, too.
Me, too.
The excellent chutney.
(LAUGHS)
LAURA: It's something
I never expected.
My parents made me take up law
and the first case I get,
I feel I'm making a difference.
It's a wonderful feeling.
I never, ever expected that.
(CHUCKLING)
I feel exactly
the same... Still.
Cheers.
ALL: Cheers.
All right, who wants any more
of this excellent vintage?
Yes, please.
HEATHER: Oh, no, not for me.
This trial has been both
long and hugely expensive,
costing an estimated three
million pounds or more
and running for
almost eight weeks.
As the trial enters
its eighth week,
some are saying it raises
freedom-of-speech issues.
Only the two opposing
speeches remain
before the judge,
Mr. Justice Gray,
retires for what we are told
will be at least four weeks
to consider his judgment.
RICHARD:
My Lord, during this trial
we have heard from
Professor Evans and others
of at least 25
major falsifications of history.
"Well," says Mr. Irving,
"all historians
make mistakes."
But there is a difference
between negligence,
which is random in its effect,
and a deliberateness
which is far more one-sided.
All Mr. Irving's
little fictions,
all his tweaks of the evidence,
all tend in the same direction,
the exculpation of Adolf Hitler.
He is, to use an
analogy, like the waiter
who always gives
the wrong change.
If he is honest,
we may expect sometimes
his mistakes to
favor the customers,
sometimes himself.
But Mr. Irving is
the dishonest waiter.
All his mistakes
work in his favor.
How far, if at all,
Mr. Irving's anti-Semitism
is the cause
of his Hitler apology,
or vice versa, is unimportant.
Whether they are taken
together or individually
it is clear that
they have led him
to prostitute his reputation
as a serious historian
in favor of a bogus
rehabilitation of Adolf Hitler
and the dissemination
of virulent anti-Semitic
propaganda.
GRAY: Yes, this is a question
I have to ask you,
Mr. Rampton.
Yes, by all means, my Lord.
My question is this,
if somebody
is anti-Semitic,
anti-Semitic
and extremist,
he is perfectly capable
of being honestly
anti-Semitic, yes?
He's holding those views
and expressing those views
because they are
indeed his views?
Well, yes.
And so it seems to me,
if it comes down to it,
that the anti-Semitism
is a completely
separate allegation
and has precious little bearing
on your broader charge
that he has
manipulated the data?
No, no, my Lord. No.
The whole endeavor
of the defense
has been to prove
that the two are connected.
But he might believe
what he is saying.
That is the point.
That is why it is so important.
My Lord, if we know that
Mr. Irving is an anti-Semite,
and if we know there is
no historical justification
for Holocaust denial,
then surely
it is no great stretch
to see that
the two are connected.
Yes. Thank you.
Carry on.
(WHISPERING)
What the fuck just happened?
Anthony, what just happened?
(METAL CLANGING)
(WHIRRING)
LIBBY: Well? How was it?
DEBORAH: I'll tell you
what happened at the end.
We summed up.
Irving summed up.
(SIGHS)
(LAUGHS) And?
And everyone kept saying,
this is all great,
everything's gonna be fine.
And then suddenly this judge,
this unbelievable character
from Masterpiece Theatre...
Oh, I like Masterpiece
Theatre- I know.
Anyway, at the last minute,
he looked up and he said,
"Well, you know, maybe
Irving actually believes it.
"He's an anti-Semite
and he believes it.
"You can't accuse
someone of lying
"if they genuinely believe
what they're saying."
That's crazy.
That's insane.
And that's when I thought,
"I've been suckered."
I stared at this judge
for eight weeks
and I thought
I was looking at wisdom,
but maybe I was just
looking at prejudice.
(SIGHS)
Well, what can you do?
I just wait.
Just wait.
LIBBY: And do they tell you
the result in advance?
DEBORAH:
No. But my lawyers get told.
What, they get told and they
can't tell you? You're kidding?
Yeah. They get the verdict
24 hours in advance.
To the minute. 09:00 a.m.
the day before,
to give 'em time
to prepare a response.
And what's worse,
yeah, Irving gets it, too.
LIBBY: Why? Because
he's his own lawyer.
So he's allowed it and I'm not.
MALE HISTORIAN: (OVER TV) I think
this trial is sending a chill
through the community
of 20th century historians.
Which historian isn't thinking,
"Would my work survive
this kind of scrutiny?"
Show me one historian who has
not broken into a cold sweat
at the thought of undergoing
similar treatment.
(PEN SCRIBBLING)
DEBORAH:
When people glibly say,
"Oh, if I'd have
been in Germany,
"I would never
have collaborated,
"I'd have resisted,"
I just wanna laugh.
Do you have any idea
how dangerous and
difficult it was?
Standing up to the
enemy was arduous
and uncertain and exhausting.
But they had to do it.
Only in hindsight that
things get called heroic.
At the time you're just afraid.
Afraid of how things
will turn out.
(PANTING)
(CELL PHONE RINGING)
Deborah Lipstadt.
Ah, good. There you are.
Anthony.
Yeah. Just to say we've been told
to expect the verdict on Tuesday.
On Tuesday?
Are you sure?
You know, I don't think they'd
have said it unless it were true.
I've been wondering if we could
work out some kind of code.
Like I call and say, "How's the
weather?" and you say, "Good."
Meaning...
Yeah, yeah, I get it.
Or you say the weather's bad
and that would mean...
Only, of course,
I'd be disbarred.
I'd never be allowed to
practice law in England again.
Oh, well, there'd be an upside.
Ah.
(KNOCKING)
ANTHONY: Yes?
(INDISTINCT CONVERSATION)
That one.
Deborah.
Well?
(PEN CLICKING RAPIDLY)
(REPORTERS CLAMORING)
ANTHONY: Out of the way,
please. Out of the way.
Guilty! Filthy Jew!
MAN: Jewish scum!
(SHOUTING CONTINUES)
Shame on you!
WOMAN: Shame on you, Nazi lover!
(CHANTING)
David! David! David!
(INDISTINCT CHATTER)
Oh.
(SMACKS LIPS)
CLERK: My Lord.
GRAY: Hmm?
JANET: Thank you, Jay.
One per person. Thank you.
Ladies first, I think.
There you go. Thank you.
One per person.
Thank you. I'll do it.
MALE REPORTER: This massive
334-page document,
which does not yet disclose
the final verdict,
is studiously
even-handed.
It is difficult to
say on which side
Mr. Justice Gray's
decision will land.
MALE REPORTER 2: It praises Irving's
skill as a military historian,
while at the same time
drawing attention to flaws
in some of his reasoning.
(CHIMING)
(CHIMING CONTINUES)
(INDISTINCT CHATTER)
JANET: Court rise.
David Irving
v. Penguin Books Limited
and Deborah Lipstadt.
I shall read my judgment.
GRAY: It appears to me
that the correct
and inevitable inference must be
that the falsification of
the historical record
was deliberate and that Irving was
motivated by a desire to present events
in a manner consistent with
his own ideological beliefs,
even if that involved distortion
and manipulation
of historical evidence.
In the result, therefore,
the defense of
justification, succeeds.
The court finds
for the defendants.
JANET: Court rise.
(APPLAUSE)
(CHEERING)
(LAUGHS) I can't believe it!
JAMES: It's true.
Well done. Well done.
Well done.
(INDISTINCT SHOUTING)
Mazel tov!
You've been brilliant.
Mazel tov!
You didn't let me say anything.
I didn't say a thing.
Well, nor did I.
Think how I feel.
It's not true.
It's not true, Deborah.
It was your book.
Your book held up
in every aspect.
Every aspect. Every detail.
We defended it.
But it was the book.
It was the book. THOMAS: I
know, I know, I know...
(LAUGHTER)
DEBORAH: Thank you for all your hard work.
THOMAS: You are so welcome.
It was like a dream job.
Well done. Well done.
DEBORAH: Laura. Genius!
(LAUGHTER AND CHATTER)
REPORTER 1: This has been
called one of the most
crushing libel
judgments in history.
REPORTER 2:
The judge called Mr. Irving
an anti-Semite, a racist,
and a distorter of history.
Can you tell us how you're
feeling at this time?
ANTHONY: I feel terrific.
This is a wonderful day.
A wonderful day for everyone.
MALE REPORTER: Deborah. Deborah, how
do you feel about today's verdict?
Now you can speak.
Great.
Can you expand at all on that?
(LAUGHS) Come on. Come on...
Come to the press conference!
FORBES-WATSON: We saw this
as a free-speech issue.
Penguin defended
D.H. Lawrence.
We defended Salman Rushdie.
It was inconceivable
we wouldn't defend
Deborah Lipstadt.
MAN: She's here. She's here.
(ALL APPLAUDING)
FEMALE JOURNALIST:
Miss Lipstadt? Miss Lipstadt?
Deborah?
(REPORTERS CLAMORING)
Can I ask, do you
have any regrets
about bringing the case?
I don't know how to say
this often enough,
I didn't bring the case.
Mr. Irving did.
(LAUGHTER)
Although I'm not
sure he realized
when he agreed to a trial
by a single judge,
that it would mean
a written judgment.
This judgment is gonna
stand against him forever.
Now, some people are saying
that the result of this trial
will threaten free speech.
I don't accept that.
I'm not attacking free speech.
On the contrary,
I've been defending it
against someone
who wanted to abuse it.
Freedom of speech means you
can say whatever you want.
What you can't do is lie,
and then expect not to be
held accountable for it.
Not all opinions are equal
and some things happen,
just like we say they do.
Slavery happened.
The Black Death happened.
The Earth is round.
The ice caps are melting
and Elvis is not alive.
(FAINT LAUGHTER)
Miss Lipstadt?
You've conducted
yourself with dignity
throughout the trial.
Thank you. Uh, but I
know what that means.
That's code in England
for "I've shut up,"
and I don't promise to shut
up in the future. (LAUGHTER)
FEMALE REPORTER: Miss Lipstadt,
how convinced were you
that this trial was going to
have a good outcome for you?
Um, well, before
I came to London,
I was definitely not convinced
that a court of law
was a good place to
investigate historical truth.
But...
I underestimated
the value of a team.
Of real teamwork.
And it turns out
it's not a bad place.
As long as you have great
lawyers with great passion.
And, uh, my God, did I
have great lawyers.
(LAUGHTER)
(REPORTERS CLAMORING)
MALE REPORTER: Miss
Lipstadt, if you could say
something now to David Irving,
what would you say?
I wouldn't say anything
to David Irving.
I would say something to the
survivors and to the murdered.
And I would say...
"You were remembered.
"The voice of
suffering was heard."
(CLAMORING)
You really are
quite good at this.
Thank you.
IRVING: (OVER TV) I think if you
look at the judgment closely,
you'll see there are all sorts
of things there in my favor.
JEREMY: You're not
seriously suggesting
that this judgment supports you?
Well, plainly I ran
rings round the defense.
My only regret is I didn't use
a mallet of sufficient caliber
to ram my case into
the thick skull of the judge.
JEREMY: Mr. Irving,
what people want to know
is whether, on the basis
of this judgment,
you will now stop
denying the Holocaust.
Me? Stop? Good Lord, no.
(PHONE RINGING)
JEREMY: Despite the fact that
the judge says,
"It appears to me..."
DEBORAH: Hello?
Deborah?
He seems to be saying he won.
(LAUGHS) I know. He used
to be a Holocaust denier,
and now he's a verdict denier.
IRVING: The fact that she
didn't even dare to appear
tells you everything you need
to know about Miss Lipstadt.
Let's just turn him off.
I don't think
her Brooklyn accent
would have endeared
her to the court.
It's Queens.
(CHUCKLES)
(REMOTE CLATTERS)
(PANTING)
(CHUCKLING)
(PANTING)