1
Jon.
Do you know why we
wanna talk to you, Jon?
I don't know,
I think so.
Why do you think I
wanna talk to you?
About that boy.
- Yes?
- Because someone took him and killed him.
Yes.
It wasn't me, I never
went to Bootle Strand.
Well we're not gonna
talk about that just now.
First we're gonna talk
about something else.
Do you know what truth is, Jon?
Yeah.
Go on, you tell
us what you think truth is.
That you've done
something and it's true.
And what if you
were telling lies?
I don't know.
Is telling lies wrong?
- Yeah.
- So if I said that your face is green
and your hair is pink,
would that be a lie?
Yeah.
Okay, so you know what a lie is.
Robert, you've seen the
pictures on TV
showing James and the two boys
who took him, haven't you?
Yeah, it isn't me
'cause I didn't take him.
Well there's a boy in the video
who has a jacket
just like yours.
There's lots of jackets
the same as mine.
Well there's also a boy with a jacket
like Jon's walking next to James.
Well, he's not walking with me.
But you were there, weren't you?
Yeah, I was there.
I saw him but I didn't take him.
What was he doing?
He was just with his mum,
he had a blue coat.
I think, Jon, you
should know that Robert
is at Walton Lane police station
and he's told a different story
of what happened on Friday.
Robert probably told lies.
What do you think
Robert lied about?
I don't know, you
think I killed the kid?
No, they don't think that, Jon.
There's no need to get upset.
No one's saying that, Jon.
They just want to
know where you've been.
If you've been robbing all
day, you should tell them.
I never went to Bootle Strand.
Now is that the truth or a lie?
The truth.
Jon told me earlier that Robert
was going to tell
all kinds of lies.
Robbie took me to
places I didn't know.
He's frightened
because he doesn't know
all the places and Robert does.
Was it the Bootle Strand?
No. - You see, Robert says
that he was with you
and that you were indeed in
Bootle New Strand together.
- We wasn't.
- Robert says you were.
Yeah, we was but we
never saw any kids there,
we never robbed any kids.
So you were in
Bootle New Strand?
Was you at Bootle Strand?
Yeah, but we never got a
kid, mum, we never got a kid.
Mrs. Venables, would you, I must
ask you not to get angry with him.
We never got a kid,
mum, we never,
we saw those lads
together, we did,
we never got a kid, mum,
mum, we never got a kid,
you think we did, we never,
mum, we never.
I think you saw more of James
because you wouldn't
remember a blue coat
- from a brief glance.
- I never took him.
Well, we believe that you left
with baby James and with Jon.
- Says who?
- We say.
No, I never left with him.
Well, tell me
what happened then.
I never touched him.
I never touched him.
That's why you noticed
his anorak,
because Jon had hold of
his hand, isn't that right?
Yeah, Jon grabbed
hold of the baby's hand
and just walked around
with him for a bit,
but then he let him go loose.
Where did Jon let him go?
By the church.
I told Jon to take him back.
Well I have a statement
from a woman
who said she saw two boys
with a baby on the reservoir.
Now I think that's you
and Jon with James.
What happened to him?
We just found him at
the bottom of the hill.
Did he have a fall?
That's a bad bruise.
He was like that when
we found him.
You'd best take him to
Walton Lace Police Station,
do you know where it is?
Yeah, we'll bring him now.
If you knew that I
went to Bootle Strand--
I would have strangled you, yeah.
And wouldn't you have thought
I'd killed a kid, I never--
I'd never think that.
Because, because
I would have told,
because I thought
you'd think I done it.
If I would have known
all this now, Jon,
I would have had you down
the police station right away
instead of them banging
on my front door
making a show of me
in the streets.
But I,
I thought you'd think I killed him.
We just found him, he
was lost at the Strand.
We're bringing him to
the police station now.
If you found him by the Strand,
why didn't you bring him to the
police station by the Strand?
We were bringing him to
Walton Lane Police Station.
Well, you've come an awfully long way from
the Strand to Walton Lane Police Station.
Well, that's where
the man directed us.
Where do you live?
The police station
is on the way home.
Are you all right?
We'll bring him to
the police station.
Would you mind looking
after my little girl
while I take him to the station?
Oh, my dog doesn't
like children,
he's afraid of them, sorry.
Okay, boys, do you know
which way you're going?
Yeah, we know.
Are you sure you know the way?
I'll go that way, missus.
So, you did leave
with James then?
Yeah, we went to the Strand
and we picked up
little James up.
Well, he, Jon did.
Right.
Then we took him down
and left him on the How.
On the How?
By the railway.
Why did you leave James there?
'Cause if we took him
to the police station,
then we'd have to go inside. He wasn't
crying anymore, he was just looking around,
he'd only had a graze.
Now, would you
have left baby Ben,
your brother there,
if he was two?
No, 'cause he's my brother.
And would you have
left a similar boy?
He's not, though, he's
not any relation to us.
Mum, is Jon getting asked this?
Robert says that you
took James by the hand
and led him out out to
the Strand shops.
- We never, we never--
- No, not we,
Robert is saying that
you took him by the hand.
- We never.
- Not Robert, you did it.
- I never.
- Well, why would Robert say that about you?
He's a liar!
- All right, come on love, you tell them the truth.
- I never took him
by the hand, I never
even touched the baby.
- Jon, are you all right to carry on?
- Yeah.
Jon, look at me.
If you want to stop at
anytime, you just say so.
You need to tell the truth, Jon,
because you keep
telling us stories.
I never got the boy.
Well, if you never got the
boy, tell us what happened.
Was it Robert?
- You're nodding your head.
- Yeah, he left him in the road.
Right, well, let's
go back to the Strand.
No, I never touched a boy,
mum, I never.
Okay.
Come here, son, all
right, come on, come on.
- Oh God, no.
- Settle yourself down.
I can't, I never touched him.
Sit down, go to your mum.
All right, all right, you're
going to get me crying now, look.
- I never, mum.
- I know you wouldn't, I know you wouldn't do that to a boy.
All right, well, why don't
you tell us what happened, Jon?
I left Robert on his own.
Tell me the truth,
now Jon, please.
I never killed him, mum,
we took him and left the
canal, mum, that's all.
He left him at the canal,
by the Strand?
Yeah.
Where did you find the
boy in the Strand?
I don't know, he was just
walking around on his own.
I never killed him, mum,
I never killed him, mum,
I wouldn't hurt a baby.
I know you wouldn't hurt a baby.
I wanna go home, I've already
told you what I know.
You're gonna put me in jail,
I never, mum!
I never, I never, I never,
I never, I never, I never.
You see, Robert, if
James was bleeding
and we find his blood on
your clothes or Jon's,
then we'd know that you were
there when he was bleeding.
But how would you know
it was baby James' blood?
We'd know because
we have his body.
Where?
Well, it doesn't matter where,
he's probably been to
the hospital first.
Why?
To take blood from his
arm like they did with you.
They've taken him to
try get him alive again?
No.
No, they can't do that.
I was told he got
chopped in half,
well, he couldn't come
alive again, could he,
if he'd been chopped in half?
The blood might be mine 'cause
I was bleeding from a cut.
Well, you couldn't
do that with your shoe
and the blood has been
found on your shoe.
I never murdered him.
You're just trying to
say that I murdered him.
Why aren't you
doing this to Jon?
Ask Jon, I never touched him.
Jon,
your dad and I want to say something to you
and it's important, all right?
Okay.
We want you to know that
we love you, very, very much.
More than anything.
And nothing is going
to change that, okay?
- Okay.
- So...
What I'm trying to say, Jon,
is that no matter what happens,
no matter what you've done,
even if it's really, really bad,
we'll always love you,
you know that, don't you?
Yeah.
We'll always love you, Jon.
But you've got to
tell the truth.
Mum.
Mum, I wanted to tell you.
I did kill him.
What about his mum?
Will you tell her I'm sorry?
Where did you find James?
At the butcher's.
And whose idea
was it to take him?
Mine, then it was
Robert's idea to kill him.
Why did you want to take him?
I just said to Robert, is
that boy lost or something?
We were looking around
for his mum for a bit,
but then we got fed up and
we went outside to the canal.
Come on, baby, come on, let's
look at the water, come on.
Let's push him in.
Then Robert picked him up
and threw him on the floor,
and that's how he got
the bump on his head.
- Was he crying then?
- Yeah.
We ran away but
then we came back
and he was already
walking up to us.
I'm sick of having
my little brother,
I have him from school
all the time.
I'm gonna tell my mum I
ain't gonna mind him no more.
Come on.
We got to the middle of
the bridge
and Robert opened the paint tin,
and then
he threw it in James' face.
I can't tell you anything else.
Why?
'Cause that's the worst bit.
Okay, right,
I know that's the worst bit,
but you know what you
did and if you try hard,
you'll be able to tell us.
Just have a little rest,
think about it
and just tell us what happened.
We took him on the railway
and started throwing
bricks at him.
Who did?
Robbie.
He just said, he said,
"Stand there
"and we'll get you a
plaster or something."
Then he lifted this brick
up and threw it in his face.
You've denied a lot
of things, Robert,
and then admitted them.
We were right about
those things,
and we're right about
this as well.
Yeah, well, I didn't kill him.
If you just tell them the truth, this
will all be over in a few minutes.
Jon threw a brick in his face.
Why?
I don't know.
Right, we're getting there,
aren't we?
We're getting to the truth now.
Yeah, well, I'm gonna end
up getting all the blame
'cause I've got blood on me.
What happened after
Jon threw the brick?
The brick hit him in his face
and he fell over on the floor.
Why the hell didn't
you just leave?
I did, after that I ran.
I left Jon on his own.
- What was the baby doing?
- He was just on the floor crying.
Was he awake or asleep?
What do you mean?
Like was he asleep, or?
He was awake.
Then Robbie said,
"Pick up a brick and throw it."
But I just,
I threw it on the floor.
I missed it on purpose 'cause
I didn't wanna hurt him.
But then Robbie picked up the
same brick and threw it again.
I don't think that you've
told us the full truth.
That's all I seen.
We already know about
things that happened
and it doesn't explain a lot of things.
And you were there,
like, and seen me?
No, but we can tell what
happened from his injuries.
Why would I take flowers over
to the baby if I killed him?
I know the truth, I
believe I know the truth.
So do I, I was there.
- That's right.
- You weren't.
Then Robbie threw about 10
bricks.
I only threw six or five,
but I missed James and
hit him in the arm
because I never meant
to hit him in the arm,
I wanted to get the
brick to the side of him,
Was he bleeding?
All over.
It's all our family,
it's always our family
that gets the blame.
Your family might've
got blamed in the past,
but on this occasion,
we're right, aren't we?
No, 'cause I never touched him.
Tell us what happened then.
Jon threw another brick.
Where did that hit him?
On there.
What happened then?
Then he hit him again with a big
metal thing that had holes in it.
Where did he hit him with that?
In the head, he just
went like that and hit him.
He hit him with the bar
and I think he was knocked out.
Then we threw a few bricks
at him and we ran away.
Why did you run away?
I don't know,
I just said to Robert,
don't you think we've
done enough now?
Were you angry with James?
No, I didn't really
want to hurt him.
I didn't want to
hurt him or nothing,
'cause I didn't want to
hurt him with strong things,
only, like, light things.
So, you only wanted to
hurt him a little bit.
Answer the question.
Why did you want to
hurt him a little bit?
I mean, I didn't want
to hurt him, really,
Robert probably,
Robbie was probably
doing it for fun or something,
'cause he was laughing his head off.
Why did, why did he do all this?
Why did Jon do all this?
I don't know, that's
what I don't know.
I don't believe, Robert,
that you just stood idly by
while Jon did all those things.
I was trying to pull Jon back.
Job has admitted to throwing
stones, things like that,
but he's also blaming
you on a lot of things.
I don't think Jon
did everything.
Yeah, well, I never.
I think you hit him.
Well, that's what you think.
There's only one person here
that knows the whole truth.
I know, and I've
just said it all.
I know I never hit him so I've
got nothing to bother about.
I can't,
I can't sit through any more of this.
Did either of you
take James' clothes off?
Robert pulled his
pants off and his undies
and I pulled his shoes off.
Why?
I don't know why, it was
last week, I keep forgetting.
I don't any more now, dad.
He's asking me too
hard questions.
Why would I want to kill a baby
when I've got a baby of my own?
If I wanted to kill a baby,
I'd kill my own, wouldn't I?
Well, you said your own
baby is family, didn't you?
What do you mean?
Well, that's what you said.
I know he's my family,
I'm not stupid.
I don't even know what
you're going on about.
When James' body was found,
his bottom clothing had been removed.
Can you tell us why that is?
- No.
- Did you start playing with him?
With who?
With James' bottom.
No.
Are you sure now?
Yeah, I'm not a pervert,
you know?
Jon says it was you who pulled
off his pants and his underpants.
So in other words,
you're taking what Jon says
and just ignoring me,
so I'll ignore you.
There was an injury to James' mouth.
Do you know anything about that?
No, I'm not answering any more.
I think there's still some
things you haven't told us, Jon.
The batteries, why were
the batteries there?
I don't know.
I think you do know, Jon.
I never put them there,
Robert just threw them.
It was a little bit
more than throwing them.
I don't know, I don't know, dad.
Jon, is it horrible what
happened to the batteries?
I don't know anything about what
Robert did with the batteries.
Why are you crying then?
Because you'll blame it on me, that I had
them, I don't know about the batteries,
I don't know, I don't know.
Hey, hey, don't go
to punch your dad.
My dad thinks I
know and I don't.
You're saying I do and I don't,
I only know he got killed.
Calm down, Jon.
Can you tell us what
happened to James' mouth?
I don't know, I
never saw nothing.
Jon, you've got to
admit to yourself
but you saw everything
that happened there
because you were a part of it.
No, I never.
So you can't say you didn't see.
No, I want my mum,
please, I never.
Please, I don't know,
make it stop, dad,
please, make it stop,
make it stop,
make it stop, make it
stop, make it stop!
We're gonna take a drive, Jon.
We'll start at the Strand and you can
show us the route you took from there.
Look, that's us.
There's a lot of those around.
You don't need them now, do you?
How come my picture is
in black and white,
and Robert's isn't?
Don't know, Jon.
Was that a train going past?
- Yeah.
- I know all them trains.