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Louis, Martin & Michael (2003)
This programme
contains strong language. I've always been fascinated by the pop star Michael Jackson. I've made approaches to see if he'd be interested in collaborating on a documentary. I never heard back. But in the summer of 2002, I decided to make a start without him, hoping he'd want to get involved. It was worth the risk, for a chance to learn about this eccentric star. It was June and Michael Jackson was in England for a short visit. He stayed in London and was ferried around by Uri Geller to the sights. What are you hoping to see? I don't know, I haven't been in yet! Uri also took Michael to Devon for the day to visit his football club, Exeter City. When I called Michael and I said to him, "Michael, will you come to Exeter City football club?" He said, "Will there be children from hospitals?" I said "Yes." His first words were, "See it as done." Michael Jackson! Hello to you wonderful people of Exeter. CHEERING I wasn't in Exeter that day, I was in London checking into his hotel in an effort to get close to him. I'd made several calls to Uri Geller to see if he'd arrange a meeting. At first, he seemed keen to let us film some of the trip. Now Michael was in the country, I was having trouble getting through. GELLER: 'Hi, we're on the phone or out of range. 'Please leave your name and number and we'll call you back. 'Alternatively you can text message us on the same number. Bye.' Well, what do you think? Does he usually answer? Yeah. I'll try back in a bit. Fans were gathered outside Michael's hotel. Knowing that he's in that building, you can just feel it. So much atmosphere - everyone from all over the world, different nationalities, giving back some of that love he gives us in his music. Louis? Yeah. See, I told you it was. Mark Lester. I recognised the name. Mark Lester was Oliver Twist in the 1968 film. Are you staying in the hotel? No. No, we've just been in. To see Michael? Yeah. You're joking! I've known Michael for years. Really? Yes. How about that. Lovely chap. How did you meet him? Well, we share a common interest, well, a common thing in that we were both child stars. We've sort of known each other since we were kids really. How amazing. We've had the most wonderful evening. What were you doing? Watching some sort of video, Beadle's or... Yes, he likes watching Lisa Riley. Lisa Riley? Yes. The You've Been Framed? Yes. He loved that programme. Said he was rolling on the floor laughing. What do you do now, Mark? Are you still an actor? I'm an osteopath. I still hadn't heard back from Uri so I wrote Michael a letter. What are you writing? Dear Michael, I'm making a documentary for BBC Television about you and what you mean... ..to your fans. I would...love...to...speak to you. Smiley face? Yeah. Do you think so? Well, yeah. Seems like the kind of guy who'd appreciate it. Am I plugged in? Can you hear me? OK. 'Michael was staying on the same floor as me. A security guard was outside his room all night.' Got a message. Go to security and they'll take it from there. OK, thanks very much. Thanks a lot. I couldn't be sure Michael would ever receive my letter or read it or if he'd appreciate it, let alone respond to it. I tried to remain positive. CROWD CHANTS There was a second reason why Michael Jackson was in the UK. A demonstration had been organised against Michael's label - Sony. Sales of Invincible were disappointing. He blamed Sony for lack of promotion. Fans had come to lend support. It seems odd to protest against a record label for not promoting it. It's not just about that. It's about destroying music. It's about art in general. By not promoting the album, they don't let people hear the music. It's like business against art. That is brilliant. Michael's coming. He's coming here? He's coming. Are you lying? Wicked! Are you serious? Don't leave, please don't leave, he wants you here. Please don't leave. Please stay. LOUD SCREAMING God, he is on there. He's actually on there! It's quite exciting! CROWD SHOUTS AND SCREAMS EVERYONE: Sony sucks! Sony sucks! Sony sucks! Sony sucks! Sony sucks! PEOPLE CONTINUE TO SCREAM 'It was my first encounter with Michael. 'Even I hadn't been immune to the excitement. 'The number of fans wasn't huge but the devotion was undeniable.' Are you all right? Michael flew back to America. I'd had no word from the Jackson camp and what's worse, I'd heard a troubling rumour. Martin Bashir had been seen going for a meeting with Michael. Would this have implications for my documentary? Without Michael, the next best thing might be meeting his friends. Many have been child stars, former child stars and children. We arranged an interview with Terry George, who'd been friends with Michael as a teenager. We got an e-mail saying he'd pulled out. Strangely, the e-mail was also sent to Uri Geller. Time to meet Uri. Hello! Hello, Uri, how are you doing? Come in. You are kind of an unofficial spokesperson for... People who want to speak to Michael, they come to you, don't they? They come to see me because it's known that we are friends. Michael's been here, hasn't he? Yes. Many times? I don't want to comment on that... Why not? It's no-one's business how many times he's been here. I can tell you there was one occasion... So not that many? No, not that many. Really? How many times did he come to England overall? Not many. There's a picture of Michael over here. May I pick that up? Absolutely. Yeah, this was an amazing event when I became the joint chairman of Exeter City Football Club, I rang Michael and David Blaine and asked them if they'd become honorary directors. To come all the way from Los Angeles and give that unbelievable speech where you were, you attended... Where? Exeter City Football Club. No. You weren't there? No, we weren't allowed to. I thought you were in the background. No, we wanted to be in the stadium but we weren't allowed. I thought you were there. We called to interview you in the run-up to the event, do you remember? I... You said no. I said to you no? Do you want to know why I said no? With you, there's always that suspicion that you'll turn this into something to ridicule Michael. I think he's been hurt so much by the press, by television, that he's very reluctant to open up and inviting a crew into his own home. Although I have arranged an interview with him for ITV. Because a certain journalist in ITV, I believed that he had credibility and was honest in what he was saying. I'm not saying you're not honest. Mm. Is it the Martin Bashir interview? Mm-hm. So... They've started interviewing Michael. That's a fantastic scoop for ITV. Not a lot of camera crew is going to Neverland. Have they been there? I think so. I contacted you in early June? Mm. About hoping to meet Michael. Yeah. And, um, maybe being part of the Exeter City football event. Yes. And, um, at that time, not only did you not help me, you helped Martin Bashir get an interview with Michael Jackson. I'm sorry! Please forgive me. Forgive me if I was wrong. We all make mistakes. I could've been wrong. The good news is... You're... ..We're still here. Exactly. If you wanna fix it up now, or tomorrow or next week that would be brilliant. Tell you what. I will try. I will ask Michael if he'll be interviewed by you. But again, having said that, while you prepared for this documentary you approached a few people who had negative material about Michael. That gets to me. How...what...who...? I'm not, I won't mention names. But you were trying to extract negativity from people about Michael. I think I know what you're talking about. OK. Do you mean Terry George? I won't mention names. Why? Cos I just don't wanna mention names. Mm-hm? I know you got an e-mail from Terry. I think you know that I know cos the e-mail was CC'd to you. We did intend to interview Terry and hoped to do it on Monday. Terry, having been in contact with you, has withdrawn his interview. I don't wanna mention names... I don't expect you to. I have so you don't have to. I won't mention anything. But I did get e-mails from different sources you have approached that led me to believe the flavour of this programme will be anti. It'll be derogatory towards Michael. This is Michael in 2002. This is an approved photograph. I think Michael looks great here. It could be, even, a lookalike. I'm not doing a stunt. This is Michael Jackson. And the reason I'm pulling it out is just because it's easy to talk about Michael Jackson. He's not here in person, so it's nice to have something to refer to to remind us who we're talking about... These are exactly the lines that make your programme the, the suspicious programme that I'm talking about. Why? Because of your, your - the way you react and the sort of, er, snakey manner you bring up things. This was a very good example. I don't follow you. We're not in kindergarten here, are we, Louis? I honestly don't know what you mean. Do you consider me a four-year-old? Do you mean that I have photos? No. I refer to the manner of questioning. "I'm holding a picture just to remind you. Michael is not here." That's unnecessary. This is what makes your programme, um, in my opinion, not the right one to interview Michael Jackson. Do you believe that I have no idea what you're talking about? Good. It means you believe in yourself. It was getting tense so I asked Uri about his wedding the year before. Why did you think Michael would be a good best man? He's a friend. He was in England. I thought it'd be a wonderful angle. Best men conventionally give a speech where they reveal secrets about the groom, don't they? Not in Jewish weddings. What do they do in Jewish weddings? Lift you up. Do they? On a chair and dance to klezmer. They don't do the speech? They don't do, "I'll never forget the time Uri..." What? "..bent that spoon." Are you gonna help us, Uri? We'll see. What does that mean? To me that means no. What? To me... No. I promised you. Well, say yes, then. I gave you my word I'd bring up your name. Bringing it up isn't - you don't just bring it... You might bring it up and go, "Avoid this man." No. I'd say...I'll, I'll tell Michael you're doing a major documentary. And, erm... And don't go near it. He will say, "Who is Louis?" I'll say, "He's a nice young man. "He does all these interesting programmes." Then I'll tell him... Ha-ha! "But I advise you not to do it." Big mistake. Big mistake. 'It seemed pretty clear that Uri was not on our side. 'He was on ITV's side. 'To learn more about Michael, I'd have to go where he was, Las Vegas.' MUSIC: Human Nature by Miles Davis Michael was on holiday, but was seen shopping at the Luxor Hotel, apparently um-ing and ah-ing over buying a golden sarcophagus. He'd also been seen at the Guinness World Of Records Museum. He looked like he had lipstick on - well, he did really. To me, he looked like, I guess he was very white. Like a ghost. No colour. He'd apparently visited his friends, Siegfried and Roy's magic show. DRAMATIC MUSIC Progress was slow. But, we had one lead. An ultra fan and impersonator called E Casanova. He was performing at a local club. Every now and then in life, you run across something you can't explain. Tonight is your night to witness something you can't explain. The world's greatest tribute artist. The best in the planet. Ladies and gentlemen, please put your hands together and welcome the legendary, the unforgettable E Casanova! Give it up! APPLAUSE DRAMATIC MUSIC CONTINUES INTRODUCTION TO BILLIE JEAN # She was more like a beauty queen # From a movie scene # Said I don't mind but do you think I am the one # Who can dance on the floor in the round # She said I am the one # Ooh! Kid's not my son # No, no # She says I am the one # You know Billie Jean... # E Casanova's manager took me backstage. How you doing? Majestik Magnificent. Say again? Majestik Magnificent. I'm Louis. Louis Theroux. I'm the door for E Casanova, number one tribute artist in the world. Endorsed by the family and Michael Jackson. Whoa! Majestik-with-a-K Magnificent claimed he knew the Jackson family. Michael's mum and dad, Katherine and Joe and all his siblings. Randy, Jermaine. I can call 'em all! They're my friends. LaToya, you there? Pick up, I need to talk to you. Hello, hello, hello, hello. Pick up, pick up. Hello, hello, hello, hello, hello. Hello, hello, hello, hello. Pick up. Give me a call if you get this. If he was telling the truth, Majestik Magnificent was the Las Vegas answer to Uri Geller. Maybe we can get something going with LaToya? I don't know. She's finicky. If LaToya do your show, forget about doing something with Michael. What about if Katherine did it? That's different. Michael loves her. Joseph? I know he's back now, you're lucky, he's back but he was in China, for almost a month. Do you think that could possibly happen? I don't know. I know what y'all saying, you come over here in America, to interview one of the Jacksons or Michael, er... You all didn't all go through the proper procedures and you kinda rushed this thing. Interviewing the Jacksons takes preparation. We're preparing now. How? Talking to you. You tell us what we need to do and then we'll do it. I can't tell anything - I haven't talked to them. Firstly, if I decided I was going to do this, after finding out they wanted to do it, it's not impossible. Left or right? Left. Right. Right. Make up your mind, left or right? Right. When it comes to directions, don't trust him. Why y'all staying at La Quinta? Where y'all staying at? Y'all budget. The BBC, they want NBC or CBS on it. Y'all ain't stayin' at Caesars, MGM, Mirage? La Quinta, it's all right. It's all right but... I'm pullin' into La Quinta, nobody know in Britain who La Quinta... If you came out and said "We're at the Mirage." That's impressive. Didn't answer that one. Can you tell me where Michael's staying? Impossible, you know why? Not authorised. And you the press, it'll be like... If I talk to Michael and he go, "Yes, tell him where I'm stayin'," then I could tell you. But I can't do that. That'd be like... That'd be betrayal, can't betray him on...with anyone. Where is he staying? Can't tell ya. Totally impossible. Let me tell ya a secret - I live in the family's home for nine and a half years, is because the whole family trusts me. The reason I was offered 200,000 by Hard Copy, Inside Edition and turned it down and went to Katherine and Joseph and told them. I was offered 1.5 million to do a book for being with them 22 years, living in their house, and turned it down because Katherine Jackson is a second mother to me. As long as she's alive, I'll never do anything to hurt her. See, you can't buy integrity, you can't buy dignity. Your character and word is more important than money. The press have a hard time to understand that. Remember I said, "You're a class act, you're a great professional"? See, you're ruining that now. I was only teasing, cos we know where he's staying. Why you asking me? I wanted to see what you'd say. I'm...I'm a realist, I don't lie, I don't bullshit, I'm a realist. I'm not an idealist. Majestik told us he would put some calls into his Jackson friends and get back to us. Time passed. I practised moonwalking and listened to E Casanova's songs, written as a tribute to Michael called The Laughter In We. RECORDING: # Because of Michael, I see, the laughter in we # Sometimes we'll sing a sad, sad song # When I see in the tears # Has brought the laughter in here # Of the world we all live on # Because of Michael, I see # The laughter in we... # A few days later, Majestik called. Get this. This is how I got Michael Jackson's attention. I was Muhammad Ali's magician. He introduced me to Michael Jackson because I do magic, Michael loved magic. And this is how I got to know Michael. That was good, man. That's nothing. (Watch!) You hold on to it. Michael came and sit right next to me at the Pantages Theatre. And Muhammad Ali told him I was his personal magician. Is that true? Yes. Who has a personal magician?! It's a weird thing to have. You're not familiar with Ali. Muhammad Ali been doing magic for 20 years. Muhammad Ali? Yes. He told Michael Jackson I did magic and Michael said "Show me." "Yeah." Showed him some magic and he said, "Come over to my house tomorrow and show me." Mm-hm. He gave me a number to call and I called and went over. How did it go from there to you living with Michael. I didn't live with him. I live in a different... I kind of like live with the Jackson family. You lived at Havenhurst? The Jackson family home. Yes. Joseph let me move in first before Katherine. Into the main house or an outbuilding? No. I was in the main house. Don't try to say I was a servant. Don't try to say I was a caretaker, no. In the main house. Reporters trying to switch that. No, what's that got to do with being a servant, being in an outbuilding? That's for maids - I'm a magician. What's that got to do with... I'm not saying you were in the loo. I was in the main house, the main house. I took Joe Jackson out to dinner yesterday to Tickle Me, Tuesday, a comedy show... Tickle Me, Tuesday... At the Aladdin Hotel, correct. And...we stayed out till midnight and I told him about... er...the BBC, you all. And wanting interviews and what he thought about it and he said he'll think about it. If the terms and everything is met, yes. What if some... Are you all right? Sorry? Are you OK? Cut the camera. You can't keep doing that. 'It all went a little strange. 'He suddenly seemed anxious about making a deal on behalf of Joe.' Until the terms be met and they haven't. What are the terms? I ain't got nothing to do with that. You're a fuckin' idiot sometimes. Why do you say I'm a fucking idiot? Cos everybody knows what terms and conditions mean, when you're filmin' Joe Jackson. I'm just clarifying. Terms and conditions means, in case you don't know... That makes me a fucking idiot? You should know, you're a professional. Several phone calls later, part of the terms were agreed. Namely the fee, 5,000 in cash for Joe, and a 500 bonus for Majestik. It wasn't Michael but it might get me closer to Michael, so I thought it was worth a shot. The agreement was that we'd only hand over the cash if Joe turned up. It wasn't clear what 5,000 would get us. There was one more meeting with Majestik. So we're meeting him at the IHop in the parking lot. It gets more and more like doing a drug deal. It does. Know what I mean? I do. You wanna take a left? Here? Yep. Good enough? Yeah. We still had no hard evidence that Majestik could make this happen, or even that he knew the Jacksons at all. Is he here? Yep. He-hey! Phew! CAR DOORS SHU Good morning. How you doing this morning? Good afternoon. It's morning for me. Long night. What were you up to last night? This and that. We'll meet Mr Jackson tomorrow at 11.00pm at the Golden Nugget. We're going to look at a couple of his acts. 11 seems a little late. No. No. Is it any way it could be earlier? What? The meeting. No. No, you gettin'...absolutely not. I said two hour, Mr Jackson, it supposed to be an hour and a half. Because the terms that was met was pathetic, you're lucky to get that. This is really beneath him. I got to tell him 'bout the camera because... he's not going to understand this. You're starting off bad with that little home camera! It looks like a toy camera, man! It looks like something you go to Wal-Mart to buy and walk around with! It's broadcast quality, though. Tuck your shirt inside. Tuck the shirt in. That'll be fine. Look, uh... Look like a professional journalist! There ain't nothing wrong with what you have on. It's just not the kind of people they're used to interviewing them. Don't mess up the interview tomorrow. I hardballed him! We are so fucked! That was all right. We're fucked! No, we're not. We're fucked! That was good. We're gonna get shafted up the... We're gonna get shafted. No, we're not. We're gonna get shafted. No, we're not. Why do you say that? If he does turn up, it'll be 2am with a band he forces us to take shots of and gives us two minutes of interview. I think it sounds all right, man. He was a lot more relaxed today. Because he thinks it's in the bag. We're in the bag. The bag is sealed, with us in it. You know? We just... We just jump. We just jump and if we get fucked, we get fucked. I think we're gonna get fucked. Well, that's negative thinking. Why've you got that thing pointed at me? Oh! That's heavy! 'Friday night at the Golden Nugget. 'In an effort to think positive, I booked a room for the interview.' How's that? Better? 'I'd been reading about Joe. 'It had been his idea to put the Jackson Five together, when Michael was six. 'Joe had been their manager. 'The boys said he was strict to the point of brutal.' I don't look silly. Majestik told me I should. Is that all right? I'm just gonna say we're making a documentary about Michael and who he is and what makes him tick. I think that's all right. The only...iffy question is...how far to go along the sort of eccentric line. And also about Joe's being an abusive father is a little bit dicey. We waited and we waited. Oh! That's him! I think I see him. Hello, there. Nice to see you, Majestik. How do you do? Louis Theroux, BBC Television. Pleased to meet you. Thank you for sparing some time for us. How do you do? He works with Mr Jackson. This is Will, my director. Don't be deceived by the tiny, little camera. We are professional. I'm checking this camera out. It's broadcast quality. OK. There's nothing to worry about. Majestik and Will went into another room to sort out the money. Then the interview could start. Joe? Can I call you Joe? Yes. I don't want to be overfamiliar. And I'm Louis. Louis? Louis. OK, Louis. What sets Michael apart from his brothers and sisters? What are you speaking of? PHONE RINGS You're gonna edit this, right? Well, you know. It's... Life in a busy... Mr Jackson? Sure. Who's calling, please? Amir? It's Amir. Would you like to speak to him? 'Majestik had said Joe wanted to push a couple of the acts he was managing. 'And sure enough, a tribute band called The Front Page duly arrived. 'Although I was keen to talk to Joe alone, I didn't have a choice.' They're a family, like the original Jacksons. They love each other. That's how it comes. KNOCK AT DOOR I'll get it. I think I'll have to sign for it. Oh! Let 'em come on in. Come on in? Yes. 'And then Krystal arrived, 'a singer also managed by Joe, with her mother, Cynthia.' Louis Theroux. Nice to meet you. Cynthia, nice to meet you. 'By the time I'd finished interviewing Krystal and The Front Page, 'I only had five minutes to talk to Joe. 'I was starting to panic and the panic was leading to confusion.' I want to put something to you. It seems that, I don't know Michael that way but he's so much in the public eye, he has very little left for himself. Michael. I'm talking about Michael now. He has very little left for himself. I don't just mean in terms of privacy. It must be hard for him, having always been in the public eye... What is the question? What's the question? That's what's... I'm trying to freestyle! Sorry! Sorry! You get in front, man. OK. OK. Oh! Sorry! There we go. Sorry! OK. That's cool. Um... Where were we? Do you have any advice for me in my journey towards Michael? Tell him that you had an interview with me, cos he'll know it anyway. He keeps up with everything. He'll know we spoke to you? Oh, yes. Will that help our chances of seeing him? Yes, this'll help. Take care. All right. See you later. Thank you. All the questions for Joe were still tucked away in my pocket. The 5,000 was tucked in Joe's. Before flying home, I thought I'd try one long shot. A contact had given me the home address of Debbie Rowe, Michael's second ex-wife and mother of his two children. 'You need to leave the property. You will be arrested.' OK. Can I drop off a letter? 'Leave the property. You will be arrested.' OK. I'm just dropping off a letter for you. Thank you. I guess it's the right house. # Willkommen, bienvenue # Welcome... # Berlin. January, 2003. Michael was in town to collect an award. Only hours earlier, Michael, encouraged by his fans, had taken the decision to dangle a baby out of his window. To be honest, we arrived late and missed that. Martin Bashir was inside the hotel, inside Michael's room. You can't blame... I don't want to be fucking pious about it, but you can't blame him for... It's not sour grapes. It's just totally bitter. There's something brilliant we're missing over there. All the lights are going off. Where are we? We're on our way. CROWD CHEERS Look at that! People are going nuts! Do you want to hop out? 'As we pulled up outside his hotel, 'Michael seemed to spot the light on our camera and cut short a sing-along he'd been having.' CROWD SINGS CROWD: # There's a choice we're makin' # We're savin' our own lives... # THEY SHOUT IN GERMAN You are freaks, you are! He saw you and he left. He pointed at you. He pointed at your car. Fuck the press. Go away. CROWD: # .. a brighter day, just you and me. # The fans we'd most upset started taking pictures of Will and I. We learnt later this was for a German Michael Jackson fan site. For Michael's fans, it was another chance for a jamboree in his honour. I recognised Danny from Hertfordshire. Why are you here, Danny? Very dedicated, aren't you? Yeah. I was in New York last July. Why are you here? Because... you know, it's um.... it's...it's...it's a way to...for us to give some of that love back and to show our support, express our support for Michael. But you think he's a normal human being? Absolutely. This guy in London seemed to see Michael as a religious figure. I'm not...I'm not seeing him as Jesus, or anything. I see him as an incredibly gifted human being who, maybe, was put here for a reason to inspire people through his own... And to help heal the world through his...his inspirational message. He inspires me, you know? To just hold on and be positive... and, er...and be faithful and believe. It was minus six degrees, but many of the fans stayed outside Michael's hotel all night. Some huddled, others moonwalked to keep warm. Oh, man. The next day, Michael's baby dangling was big news. Michael Jackson has admitted he made a terrible mistake dangling his baby out of the window of a Berlin hotel. Speaking for Michael was Uri Geller. They almost forced him to... with love, with passion - "Michael, Michael, Michael, show us the baby!" It was a decision, a split-second decision, a bad one. A mistake. But the fans didn't seem too bothered. THEY CHANT: ..wonderful, incredible, I love you so, you're beautiful. You're wonderful, incredible, I love you so, you're beautiful. You're wonderful, incredible, I love you so, you're beautiful... HORN TOOTS THEY CHEER GIRL: I love you, Michael! It was the night of the Bambis, where Michael was to receive the Artist Of The Millennium Award. To the children of Germany... TRANSLATOR TRANSLATES INTO GERMAN MAN: Michael! Michael! Back at the hotel, with Michael due to leave in the morning, I was running out of options. Is there any chance of a photo? No. OK. If I promise you that and it doesn't come true, I'm a bad guy. We'll do what we can. We always try. If he doesn't get mobbed, he has more time to see more people. When they start closing in, we gotta get him out. Yeah. We will try, I promise. Diana, what were you saying? Huh? What were you saying to him? I was saying that not all fans maul him. Why did they talk about him being mobbed? Is he being mobbed? Yeah. You seem a little emotional. What's the matter? Nothing. What is it? What is it? What's the matter? What is it? SHE SOBS It's always the ones that mob him that get closest! And the ones that stand back and respect him don't get a look. Ah... It does my nut in. It had been another frustrating couple of days. But back in England, a breakthrough. Michael's friend Terry George agreed to an interview in his house near Leeds. Terry had been friends with Michael in the early '80s. With a cassette recorder his parents bought him, Terry would interview celebrities staying in Leeds. I knocked on the door of the hotel room, and Michael answered the door. There was no security stopping me, really. I said, "Hi, I'm Terry. Can I do an interview?" He was quite taken aback. He invited me into his room with his brother Randy Jackson and I interviewed both him and his brother. This is the look I had when I met Michael Jackson. I was very scruffy. Not very fashionable at all. Michael said to me, "That's the way I like to dress." I said, "Scruffy?" He said, "Casual - like you." The autographs of the brothers. Randy, Tito, that's Jackie... Marlon, Michael. That's one of the few years when Michael's fully grown but when he hadn't had any plastic surgery. Yeah. That's exactly as he looked. Really? He looked exactly like that, with the Afro hair and... the wide nose, and so on. But he was fantastic, got on well with him. Um...we swapped addresses and telephone numbers and he rang me the day after he'd left Leeds. Other celebrities hadn't given me phone numbers. Michael did, freely. But we did get on well at the time. It felt like I'd known him a long, long time. He was very comfortable to be with, very easygoing. Terry had kept the cassette of his interview with Michael but his only tape player was in his car. 'Here I am in the hotel in Leeds. 'And I'm in the Jackson Five's room 'and I've just asked them for an interview, just asked Michael, 'and he says it's OK for a few minutes. 'Just to prove it is him, I'll start off asking his name. 'The date is 19th February, 1979.' There you go - 1979. 'What is your name? Michael Jackson. 'And what is your job? I'm a singer. 'Who thought of the name Jackson Five? 'A little fat wobbly lady in the neighbourhood. She liked us a lot. 'We were trying to think of a name for the group and she said, "How about The Jackson Five?" 'What are your favourite bands? 'Earth Wind & Fire, some of the old... I like Wings. Wings! 'Wings and things! 'What about the Bee Gees? # Band on the run... # Oh, yeah, I forgot about them. I like the Bee Gees. '# Well, you can tell by the way I use my walk I'm a woman's man, no time to talk 'La, la la... You forgot the words, there. Yes. 'Um... 'What do you like most? 'Things that you like. I like kids a lot. 'I have a lot of nephews and nieces. 'I fish, 'er... THEY LAUGH ON TAPE Strange how he jumped from one to the other! 'Thank you. 'Terry, tell your brothers and sisters hi.' TAPE FINISHES That's amazing! How do you feel now? Emotional. I haven't heard it for a long time but I seem to know it word for word. Every time, or the last time I listened to it, I wanted to rekindle my friendship with Michael. Terry and Michael began a phone friendship until Terry notched up a 300 bill and got his parents' phone cut off. But in 1993, two papers ran the story that Michael had been masturbating during one of their phone calls. It's been in the papers that Michael made an inappropriate phone call to you... Did that...? Can you tell us what happened there? I don't want to talk about what was in the papers. That was well documented. It came out without my authority. It developed from someone with a big mouth, a friend who knew the story. Can you say if it's true? Parts of it are true. The majority of it is true, but papers get their bit and twist it. They make things sensationalised. It's not something that I want to regurgitate, really. It was well documented. Anybody who read it at that time will have seen what was said. But we had several conversations, we'd sing to each other. We'd talk about our families. There's lots of things that we spoke about. It's quite unfortunate that someone wants to focus on a ten second... well, three minute part of many telephone hours, talking for hours on the telephone. So you don't feel any grudge against him about that or that he acted wrongly? I don't feel any grudge against Michael at all. It's a shame that we don't have our friendship still. Perhaps one day we will still be friends and meet each other again and continue our friendship where we left off, I suppose. MUSIC: Thriller by Michael Jackson I was many months into my journey. I was still dwelling on my encounter with Joe Jackson. I believed he was the key to understanding Michael. I wanted another chance to speak to him and the road back started with a magician in Las Vegas. PHONE RINGS 'You've reached the Magnificent One. 'You know people, I've been in this town 15 years 'and never had a bad day. 'There's something about consistency. 'You know what to do.' MACHINE BEEPS Louis here checking in. Give us a call if you get this. 'Majestik seemed happy to be back on board as a paid consultant. 'He took us to his stepfather, Keith.' Keith raised me since I was seven. You were in a relationship with Majestik's mum? No. Majestik ran away from home. He was about ten years old. He showed up at my place. I said, "Let's go see your parents" He said, "I don't got no parents." I said, "Where are you staying?" He said, "In the park." So we go over and he really was. Why had you run away from your parents? I didn't run away. I just wanted to do magic. Where I'm originally from, there wasn't a big feel for that. Los Angeles, Hollywood has a big feel for that, so... But you'd been living in the park. I had been there for a little while. Why? I had nowhere to stay. Maybe we'll talk about that another time. No big deal. 'Majestik wanted to show us some of his TV appearances 'defending Michael against child abuse allegations in 1993.' 'Majestik is a good friend of the family.' I believe that Michael will be cleared of all these charges. There's no way it could be true. They say Michael's childlike. We should be more like Michael and relate to kids in a way they can understand. Were they pleased with how you handled it? Of course. If they weren't pleased, I wouldn't have done more shows. Wouldn't you be pleased to have somebody like me defending you? Michael seems to get Uri Geller to do it now. Uri Geller does it because he's a bigger name. But Uri Geller cannot handle that kind of crap. Trust me. Hey Joe, Majestik calling. I don't know if you're in the studio or whatever. Give me a call back. I'm here with the BBC. The good BBC. They want to come to New Jersey and do a follow up on that piece. So give me a call when you get this message. MUSIC: "Human Nature" by Michael Jackson Majestik and I caught up with Joe in a shopping mall in New Jersey where he was associate producer on a low-budget film. You girls gonna sing? Yeah. You gonna move? Yes, we're going move it and shake it. Yeah, I'm gonna watch it. You know I'm gonna watch. All right. We're gonna rehearse for a little while. OK. The plan was to interview Joe back at his hotel once filming had been completed for the day. 'It was two in the morning before we got started. 'I was tired and so was he.' I've been trying to understand the Jackson family a bit. I'm trying to understand Michael. Michael has said that he's so nervous of you that when he sees you or when he's about to see you, he regurgitates. All the way to where, Joe? He can regurgitate all the way to the bank. MAGESTIK LAUGHS He's right. Daily. LAUGHTER You really... I'm not sure what you mean when you say that. Are you saying you don't believe he does or that you don't care? Do I really care? Yeah. I really don't. Michael's on record saying you beat him with switches and belts. I never beat him. I whipped him with a switch and a belt. I never beat him. It's also been written that you would call him "big nose". Did he say that? If he said that, I don't recall calling him "big nose". If I did, it was out of a guilty situation, so you know... Whatever. When you look at Michael now, and in particular his nose, what do you think? I don't think anything. That's what he wanted. That's what he did. Do you think it looks good? If it's good for him, it's good for me. Whatever he wants. Louis, he doesn't want to talk about that stuff. I will get up and walk out if I have to talk about Michael's nose. He wouldn't like that. It seems to me, having researched Michael for almost a year, that he does need... help of some sort. That he's a remarkably talented, kind, loving individual, but also that he's troubled for reasons I don't fully understand. I don't think what you're saying is so. I don't see that he's troubled. What about the fact that he doesn't seem to have any real friends? He doesn't seem to have any real romantic relationships. Michael has everything that he needs. He only relates to children. He has no friends his own age. Michael is a kid, sort of like... Michael is a kid himself. He's never really grown up. Have you ever wondered whether because he was successful young, that he came to feel that he had to be this cute little boy in order for people to love him and that stopped him growing up? No, I don't think that way at all. In his physical appearance, he's given himself this tiny nose, and has made himself look more childlike as an adult. There we go with that nose thing again. Michael has... If he wants an operation on his nose, plastic surgery, hey, he can do it, it's his right. But why would he do it? People get plastic surgery all the time. Not to that extent. I don't know know what you mean. As much as he's had it. Well, whatever he's done, he's the only one that did it. He can do what he likes. I wasn't there when he did it. I didn't know about it, so... I'm not going to talk about his nose any more. Don't ask that question again. I'm not questioning his rights. He would not like for me to tell you about his nose. If you don't want this interview to end, stay away from it. Why? Why on that particular subject? I'm not gonna make him mad. You'd better stop. I'm not gonna make him mad because of something I've said to the BBC. He don't want me to do that. Let me ask, generally, then. Do you think that maybe because he...was a child star, that he's... What I SHOULD be talking about... Stop calling him Jacko Wacko. You all started that. You started that. In America, when someone is wacko, he's crazy. Jacko Wacko. Nah. Well, a lot of people think Michael IS crazy. I don't think so. He's very smart. Michael is widely regarded as the most eccentric person on the planet. That can't be news to you. Is it? Well... Whatever. Would you like to see Michael settle down with a partner? I mean, what's a partner? A loved one. He's got his kids. What, a wife? Is that it? Yeah, a boyfriend or a girlfriend. A what? What did you say? A boyfriend or a girlfriend. Are you saying Michael's gay now? Why don't you just... Stop. Turn the camera off. Now. Turn the camera off. TURN IT OFF! You can put it back on later and continue. Why? Turn the camera off. Wait, this isn't your interview. That's why I'm here. What do you say, Joe? Hey, hey, hey! MAJESTIK'S SHOUTING DROWNS OUT JOE Ask what conversation we can have. If I had have known this would be a talk about Michael, I never would have allowed you to do this. Never. This is Michael's father, and you say he has a boyfriend? How more disrespectful can you be? Or girlfriend. You should have said, "Girlfriend or wife." That's an insult to Mr Jackson. He let you come here... Why is that an insult? We don't believe in gays. I can't stand them. Me neither. When you say that Michael should have a boyfriend... That's an insult. Yeah. Katherine... She's going to be REALLY angry about that. You asked his father if he had a boyfriend. That's an insult. Or girlfriend. But why... You said "boyfriend". Boyfriend or girlfriend. What's he need a boyfriend for? You tell me... Are you saying Michael has a boyfriend? No. I don't know what Michael's romantic interests are. I don't know which way he goes. I'm telling you, he's not with no boys. OK? He's not that. Anyway, Majestik, I'm going to have to end this. I'm going to have to end this. See? I told you. I'm not going to make Michael my enemy by talking about him. I warned him. Let's talk about something else. It's over. I said "boyfriend or girlfriend" because I said "partner" and Joe asked what I meant. I was explaining what that means. I don't understand...none of this, really. Let me rephrase it. Would you like to see Michael in a relationship? If you are referring to a wife, with a wife, that's up to him, whatever he wants to do. If he's happy he's like he is, that's fine. If he wants to be with a lady, that's fine. Whatever he wants is fine with me. Well, except a boyfriend, apparently. That ain't gonna happen. He's not gay. You must be gay to have a boyfriend. That is not going to happen. And we're through. I just spoke to you for 20 minutes. We're through. I just want to understand Michael. It was a deeply strange interview, but a revealing one. I wondered what it must have been like living with Joe as a father. In February 2003, Martin Bashir's film about Michael Jackson was watched by 14 million people in the UK and 27 million in the US. The press was universally hostile to Michael, focusing on him sharing his bedroom with children. Fans rallied to Michael, and went on the counterattack. It was the end of the road. Good to see you! 'I wondered where all of this 'left the original fixer of Bashir's interview, Uri Geller.' You fixed up the Martin Bashir programme. How did you feel about it? I felt, er... Well, I felt betrayed. Is it now hard for you and Michael? Has it spoilt your relationship? I think so. I DO think so. Umm... Because... Probably Michael thinks that I betrayed him. And, um, that's what I feel. That's very sad because we were good friends. We were close friends. So, so... I believe that time will heal. So, you made a mistake. I think I made the mistake of taking Martin Bashir to, um, to Michael Jackson. Have you spoken to Michael since that documentary went out? One time. What was that? It was very short. It's not for the camera. I've not spoken to him since that call. When was that? I won't talk about that either. You just mentioned it! I did, but I won't put a time frame to that call. Was it regarding the Bashir... Yeah, it was. He was expressing his disappointment? I won't say what he said, but I said to him that I was terribly sorry that it happened. Would you like to apologise to me? For what? For choosing Martin over me. There was a fork in the road. One road was Martin, one was me. There was also Sir David Frost. I'm sorry that I didn't introduce David Frost to Michael Jackson. Why are you smiling? Let's walk! I'm giving you the chance to apologise and you're not taking it! I don't think I should apologise to you. Read my mind. Are you still friends with Martin? How are relations between you? Which Martin are you talking about? If it's Martin Bashir, I have never been his friend. I don't want to see his face again. If there's anything to do with him on TV, I immediately switch channels. I don't ever want to see Bashir again. What do you think of Michael as he was shown in the documentary? The mistakes that Michael did, in my opinion, are... Instead of just looking into the camera and saying, "You know, I did the plastic surgery "because I don't want to look like my dad..." I think it was a mistake to tell the camera he sleeps with kids. It was also a mistake to hold that kid's hand. But Michael is so pure in his thoughts towards children... Would it be a mistake... ..and towards his love for children, which is totally non-sexual. Would it be a mistake for him to sleep with children? I think so. I think so. As a father. I'm speaking as a father. I would think twice about sending my kids into anyone's bed. Absolutely. Even Michael. Even Michael, yeah. It seems to me you've used him a bit to generate some publicity, which I think is understandable. I just wonder if you have any regrets about doing that. Um... When you say that I used him to generate publicity, that is not true - that is absolutely wrong. It was great to have him as a friend. Probably he thought the same when we WERE friends. What do you think he thinks now? I don't know what he thinks now. I will probably know sooner or later. There's no doubt in my mind that we will be together again. I never met Michael Jackson. I'd like to say that after my long journey through his world, I no longer felt the need to speak to him in person, but I can't. I'd love to meet him. Not to ask why he is the way he is, which I don't think he could answer himself anyway. I would simply enjoy being with him, another curious bystander and fan. BOY: 'What is your favourite place you like touring?' MICHAEL: 'The UK. 'What has been your biggest problem in show business? 'Er... It's a good question, but it's hard to answer. 'I wouldn't know what to say. 'Have you ever had the crowd booing at you? 'No, never. Never ever. Honestly. It's never happened. Mm-hmm. 'How would you feel if they did? 'Well... I would say, "What are you booing at?" I would ask them why.' |
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