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Nothing Like a Dame (2018)
Hello, Joan.
Hello, darling. Do you want me to sit here? Yes, please. INDISTINCT CHATTER God almighty, leave me alone! Would you mind taking a little step to your left...? To my left? - To you left. I'm Mark, pleased to meet you - Hello. I think we'd better do it because we're taking root. And then we're gonna do some where you're sort of... Yes, we look awfully hot. Oh that's an awful angle, Mark. It really is. It's not fair to old ladies - THEY LAUGH You look wonderful. No, why are you doing this? Why are you doing that? You've got to start somewhere. Is it your first day? You've never done it before? I don't think so, so give him a break. Look, see how Jude does it? Mum? So beautifully I do that or that. You're not my friend, Mark. I'm never going to a speak to you again I never want to see you again. Oh no don't be grumpy THEY LAUGH She's not being grumpy, she's being starry. Are we ready to go? I think we've been - We've been. CAMERA SHUTTER CLICKS Scene, mark. Now, if anybody wants to lie down, ladies. I'm here, darling How far away? Not far away Round the corner? - Just round the corner. Alright I want to start with when you first set eyes upon each other. Judi, can we start with you? - Oh, God. Yes but... has anyone got a memory? Let alone... oh, God. Well, I think I met you, Mags in about 1958. I think so. And we did The Double-Dealer and we went to the Edinburgh to the festival and got pursued by Miles Malleson. Did we do that in Edinburgh? Yeah, we did it at the festival don't you remember? No. Yes, you and I had to hide. It's gone, it's gone. We had to hide between the two shows because of Miles Malleson. I didn't know we were in Edinburgh. Were we good? No, I don't think we were. Too long ago I remember you saying, Mags, that you'd been discovered and rediscovered. Yeah, I'm still hanging in for that - THEY LAUGH Who saw Share My Lasses Joan did you see Share My Lasses? Well yes, you weren't listening and I've just told you. THEY LAUGH I was feeling depressed at the time and friends said 'Oh we'll take you out to somewhere that'll cheer you up madly. It's Kenneth Williams, he's very funny as you know, and there's this new girl Don't. - And that was the new girl. Would you say Kenneth had been quite a big influence on you? An enormous influence. I mean, I pinch from him all the time. Can you give us some examples? Well, in Black Comedy, I'm doing a complete Kenneth, I mean it's outrageous. He hasn't seen it, he'd be livid. You know, that awful Mrs Punnett who keeps whistling like that, you know, it's pure Ken. Settle down. Eileen, tell us a bit about Baby Eileen? A gypsy told my mother I was going to be a dancer and she kept sending me to dancing lessons and I kept screaming and wanting to come home again from the age of three. And finally at five, I seemed stuck there. And that particular dancing school was called The KY School and we had it on all our clothes... KY Gracious. My brother played the drums there and his drums had KY on it. We never knew why people laughed slightly or looked the other way. That's sad. And I danced in working men's clubs I mean, two or three times a week until my grammar school said She falls asleep in school all the tlme ' Cause you were up all night doing these things? Yes,yes Well, it was paedophilia land really. We were little girls up there. Then what, did you decide just that you didn't want to do it anymore? I did my first play when I was ten and kept telling my mum from then on, that I didn't want to dance I was going to do this other thing. We all just thought we were going to be stage actresses. Yes. Yeah. Did you start off with light and make-up? MAGGIE AND JUDI Yes, five and nine. Five and nine was the men's make up. No, I wore Dark Egyptian in one thing. Peter Pan Five and nine was really the men's make-up, wasn't it? But you added a bit of three or two and a half to it if you're a girl. And a big red spot in the corner of your eyes. Absolutely Oh, yes, red spots in the eye - Big red spot. Crimson Lake if you were being aged. Yes, lines of Crimson Lake. People coming out of drama schools years ago wanted to go to Bristol Old Vic or Oxford or somewhere there's a really good rep. There was a thing wasn't there where you went to reps and you stayed in digs and things that if the landlady wasn't very nice or didn't do something you used to nail a Kipper under the table before you left. That's true Tim West went home one night to a darkened house letting himself in the back into the kitchen and the landlady was having sex with a man on the table. And she was right out lying and as he opened the door, she saw him and she said 'Oh, Mr West, you must think I'm such a flirt On the table? - On the table. Unaware there was a Kipper attached to it. The Kipper! How ghastly Let's go through here! I went straight from the Vic to do The Cherry Orchard which was with... Oh, that was an amazing cast ...Michel Saint-Denis and Peggy. And Sir John. Who was the director? Michel Saint-Denis was it? And he was really, really unkind. He used to come to the end of Act One and then he'd give notes and he'd give a note here and he'd give a note there and he'd give a note there. And he'd get to me, he'd go Oh, horrible. And Peggy, I remember, said to me To think I nearly married that man' she said. And then she said, Never ever let him see you cry. Never let him see you cry And then one day we got to the end of Act One and he used to give the notes then and Sir John said 'Well if you'd been doing that for me, I'd be delighted,' he said. And it changed absolutely everything for me. It just... entirely changed my life really as far as, you know the fear of directors, because the more you get frightened you know, and somebody goes like that the less you can do. You can't mend it. Goodnight, Uncle. God bless you, little Anya Mmm. I was at the Old Vic theatre school, run by Judi's friend Michel Saint-Denis. pa. And George Devine And it was George who asked me to join the company for... well, it was called the English Stage Company but it just became known as the Royal Court. Michel Saint-Denis had been told that they were asking me to join the company and Michel had said... 'She can't play queens, you know ' And George had said 'I should think the last thing we want in a theatre for contemporary writers is girls born to play queens THEY LAUGH THUNDER CLAPS Stop there. INDISTINCT CHATTER I thought we were going to sing. It's very wet. - Oh, well. Yes. THUNDER RUMBLES CAMERA SHUTTER CLICKS Shall we sit under the table? # Timothy's under the table # Be careful what you say # Timothy's under the table so look the other way # You can tickle and squeeze as much as you please # But don't you go too far # Because Timothy's under the table # And he's bound to tell his ma # Why eke II remember mew What is that? It's the musical we were in Hark Hark the Fart. Listen to the W/no'... it's called Listen to the Wind. It's a terrible title. - It is a terrible title. That's what Ronnie called it is Hark Hark the Fart. Timothy's Under The Table I forget. Why did we start on that? INTERVIEWER Cleopatra... Maggie, talk to us a bit about... I'm not going to talk about Cleopatra. JOAN Right. INTERVIEWER Judi, you start. You Uh-uh. - Why? Nobody... SHE LAUGHS I'm in the clear with this one. SHE GASPS You bang on. What do you mean, you're in the clear? - You talk about Cleopatra? I've turned it down four times because I thought I wasn't good looking enough. That's the end of my story of Cleopatra What are we meant to say about that? WNW What are we meant to say to that? You're meant to say... - 'Oh, Eileen, how stupid of you What a fool.' No. Not good looking, that's a silly word I don't know. No, I didn't have the courage. There you are, I didn't have the courage. No, neither did I, that's why I did it in Canada. At least you did it though But you did it. Yes, I didn't have the courage, I was asked by Jonathan Miller to do it I just said I couldn't possibly do it at the National because in my own mind I wouldn't be first choice. Half of them will say, 'Oh my God, you know, she shouldn't be playing Cleopatra Cleopatra's supposed to be a great beauty ' So that's the first stumbling block isn't it? But you said a marvellous thing, Judi when you were asked to do Cleopatra... Do you really want... now you go on with it. What? I can't remember. I just remember people laughing openly I prefer what you said. When I said I was going to play it and it was announced, people laughed openly at me But you said to Peter Hall, was it, that was in charge? 'Do you really want...' Do you want me to say it? Yes, I do. 'Menopausal dwarf That's it. It's very funny. Are you sure you want a menopausal dwarf to play this part?' It's true. Absolutely true That's what she was - That's what she was, quite. It's the way I played it It's true. Where is the fellow? - Half are feared to come. Go to, go to Come hither, sir. Good majesty, Herod of Jewry dare not look upon you but when you are well pleased. That Herod's head I'll have. But how when Anthony is gone, through whom I might command it? They assume, well, I'm talking about critics that we all think we're the king's knees, the bee's knees and will take on these parts. They don't realise that we're shaking inside, right? That's absolutely true because that's two of us didn't have any courage at all and not do it. There's Maggie nervously doing it in another country gm mu mmgny M ma. And Tony Hopkins, on the top of the monument, he used to say 'I'm going now for a nice lie down while you do Act Five' THEY LAUGH And that is what he said. But there's a lot of rest before Act Five. There's a bit of rest in there with Pompey and all that lot. It's long enough to lose the thread. We used to be up in that Monument, when you're up there for a long time and Miranda Foster and Helen Fitzgerald used to say to me What would you really like to eat now?' And I used to say 'What I'd like now is a glass of champagne and a lobster salad And on the last, the very last night we were in the Monument and they said 'What would you like?' I said 'Oh, lobster salad and ' And they went, 'dink' with the light and there it was And we had it. I found it very difficult to say 'To the Monument' cause it's like a tube station, isn't it? I think I wasn't good at that. 'To the Monument' I thought no, I'm sorry I'd rather not say that. But wasn't it Mags, darling Mags Tyzack said she couldn't get her head round having to say, 'I am for Argos.' THEY LAUGH What was she doing? Am Wm You can't, can you? It's ridiculous. I've never not known an Antony complain because I think they find out that really it's Cleopatra's evening rather more than Antony's. I think Cleopatra is a better part than Antony. And I think the men never know until they're in the middle of doing it. MAGGIE Oh, I see. I know Alan Bates told me that. He said, 'Halfway through, I realised ' That's because he wanted to play Cleopatra. There is something of that in it, absolutely. Can't win. Talk a bit more about fright, if you will. On the way to the theatre I always think... Would you like to be run over now or in a massive car accident?' And I only just about come out on the side of no. Or sometimes, I know occasions where it could have turned to yes. I remember being in The Importance and playing Cecily and I had a little speech which was It is always painful to part from people whom one has known for a very brief space of time The absence of old friends one can endure with equanimity but even a momentary separation from one to whom one has just been introduced is almost unbearable.' And I could not remember it. Well, you do now. - I couldn't remember it at all. On the first night I just got it out and Alec McCowen after it went, 'Pop! So I said to him, 'That's no help Alec ' He said 'There was a passing fly ' That's so mean And why should I remember that now? Because you spent a very long time trying to learn it. Trying to learn it. That's all I can remember are things like that. Can you talk a bit about naturalism? When you started out were people much bigger in their performances? Well, I thought I'd done a very naturalistic performance in The Duchess of A/Ia/f/on television and then a couple of years ago I was at the Globe and they were doing the doing The Duchess of Ma/fi in one of the other theatres and one of the cast came up to me and said 'Yes, we've watched your old television of Ma/fi. Well, of course that was alright in your day but we're going to do it naturally.' Why should only I, of all the other princes in the world be cased up like a holy relic? I have youth and a little beauty. So you have some virgins that are witches. It's a different form of naturalism each time, isn't it? I mean, each generation thinks they've found the natural way to do something. No, be assured you shall not find me daughter after the slander of most stepmothers evil-eyed unto you You are my prisoner but you're... ah, yes, you are my prisoner but your jailer shall deliver you the keys that lock up your restraint. Oh, you've done it. You've done it. That was perfect. That was absolutely perfect. That will never happen again. No, it will, darling, it will. It's always very difficult for me to hear Shakespeare being done in a natural way with pauses anywhere they like and, 'Uh, uh, uh.' Um... Because they think it gives the impression that they're thinking of it absolutely of the moment. But I mean, you know, Shakespeare is poetry and it does have a rhythm and it does... And there is a way of using the poetry and being naturalistic. And that's seems to me, if it's done and things are changed and it's broken up, it seems to me to be losing entirely out on the other side of it. Y. MW- The quality of mercy is not strained. It droppeth as the gentle rain from heaven upon the place beneath. It is twice blessed. It blesseth him that gives and him that takes. It's like you bring it down to you and your size instead of reaching up to something that's a bit... Well, I think it would look pretty rum if we all did it as they did it way back. Pre Laurence I talk about. I mean, it would look a bit quaint wouldn't it? You have to move with the times That would seem to us like hollow booming. Yes, I think it does frequently sound like that now. But there's a... middle ground There is a middle ground. THUNDER CLAPS Why art thou here come from the farthest steppe of India but that forsooth, the bouncing Amazon your buskined mistress and your warrior love to Theseus must be wedded and you come to give their bed joy and prosperity. It had been announced that Larry was to be director of the National Theatre. That had been approved. I can remember I had the feeling of going almost every week. So it was very exciting for other actors in the profession as well as those of you in the company. Yes, and Maggie, I mean, you moved in there despite your nervousness about critics. V, H M. Well, I think I was more nervous of Laurence than the critics. WNW I was more nervous of your husband than the critics. I must admit. Well, I don't think... As indeed everybody was, Joan. I don't think you ever showed it - No, everybody was. We were terrified. And your name, my dear? Wilful, Jack Wilful, at your service. What, the Kentish Wilfuls or those of Staffordshire? Eh Mm. fir, mm. I'm related to all the Wilfuls in Europe and I'm head of the family at present. Do you live in this country, sir? - I live where I stand. I have no house and I have no habitation beyond this spot of ground. What are you, sir? - A rake. AUDIENCE LAUGHS In the army, I presume? No, no but I intend to list immediately. SHE WHISTLES No, he didn't scare me all the time. No, you scared him. I think I scared the wits out of him from time to time. A merry war, let us say A merry war, because I know, I remember you telling me that he'd come in and said you were too slow and you. Bored him off the stage. Ah, no money and no luggage either. Not a thing in the world. What is more, I don't care. I'm here and I don't care. I like you for that. Only for that? - No. AUDIENCE LAUGHS Not only for that You went on the next night and you went so fast that he was befuddled. MAGGIE I know. I went so fast, he didn't know whether it was Wednesday or Christmas. He could have gone into F,'/'chard /// without any trouble. I'd got him really really rattled BELL TOLLS Didn't he tell you that your vowels weren't right? Yes, he did but... - And what did you say to him? I used to put his eyelashes on No, he did tell me my vowels which they're still dodgy. Twill away again Let me but bind it hard, within an hour it will be well. So I went in to help him with the eyelashes and he was sitting there in all that gunge and I said 'How now, brown cow?' And all he said was... That's better', he said. THEY LAUGH Anyway, he got very cross with me because I wouldn't do Skin of our Teeth. Yes Yes 'Out devil,' he says But he did knock me out. Well, not quite He did. Mad! - Why, sweet Othello. Devil! - SHE WHIMPERS He hit me. Whoosh! Out devil And I was left with some black marks on my face. Oh, dear But I did say it was the only time I saw stars at the National Theatre. THEY LAUGHS Those were the days, eh'? They also had the lights put up a bit higher when he came on. When he came on, yes You could... If you went like that, you got into it. But you had to... You had to make sure you could get your head in. L&gQ[ Darling Frank Finlay. He came off one night and he flew to the prompt corner and he started tearing at his eyes. And I was so alarmed and I thought 'What's happened?' And he was wearing... he'd never worn them before he had contact lenses. EILEEN Oh, yes And he said 'I have just seen Sir Laurence and I never want to see him again!' He couldn't get them out MAGGIE LAUGHS Can you imagine? Because he couldn't see his hand in front of him, could he, Frank? Poor man. We're done, I think we're done, yeah. JOAN SIGHS The tunnel. - The tunnel INDISTINCT CHATTER We got the cottage as a halfway house between Brighton and Chichester when Larry was running Chichester Theatre because getting out of Brighton took such a long time in the summer with all the crowds of visitors. And also, we needed some country air and space. When we first came, there was just the central part, little cottage still with a few Elizabethan stones in the wall and the cottage was surrounded by nettles just nettles all around this, and the field. Some of them shoulder high. OVERLAPPING CHATTER Shall we take one on the ends? I like the way you consider what was written on the cushion Well, yeah, because you I'm sure we look natural we? Oh, dear When have we ever sat like this? When have we ever sat like this? Not even in a play. Is it too horrible? No, of course it's not. It's fine - Well, it's a funny sort of... It's a prop - It's fine, it is. It's a prop. I think it was pinched from The Three Sisters. It is from The Three Sisters From The Three Sisters, isn't it? - Yeah. SHE SINGS IN FOREIGN LANGUAGE SHE SINGS IN FOREIGN LANGUAGE # Roll the keel, roll the keel # # Roll the keel, roll the...# Look at them all looking bored over there. Are first days still scary? First days on film sets, or first days? All days, all days are scary. - INTERVIEWER CHUCKLES Yes. - No, that's true It is absolutely true. I don't know why people assume that it is any other way. It's just... It is scary and it is every day on a film, isn't it? Quiet. Let's shoot, please. Turn over. OK, action, everybody! Certainly every day on a film set because you haven't done it before. MAGGIE I know. Filming is very scary because there are so many people involved. But it's the... everybody kind of waiting with bated breath. Mm. How horrid. And who turns out to have done it? Oh, I couldn't tell you that. It would spoil it for you. Oh, but none of us will see it - SHE CHUCKLES And if you get it wrong there's a lot of silent... Looking. Looking at each other and the eyes roll and there's a bit of... MAGGIE SIGHS Heavy breathing. Are we really going again?' I wasn't actually allowed to go to films. They didn't approve I used to get claustrophobia. With that horrible smell and those carpets that sank down. I think I saw Hamlet when I was at school. v. And Hwy M MAGGIE Yes. Well, we were allowed to do that. We were made to, weren't we? That's true SHE LAUGHS We were made to because you all had to fight for our country. I had a great aunt, great aunt Sarah, I think she was called, I only met her once. She lived in Dublin and she was like a bird, a tiny little bird. And... she once said... 'I'm not going... I'm not going to films anymore because the seats are too narrow And she never knew that you actually put the seat down. She just sat on that little narrow bit - I don't believe you, Judi. She sat on that! - It's a fact. Mind you, we all did as children. Perched. The next door neighbours took me to see now this is really frightening The Jazz Singer. Al Jolson? No, it wasn't Al Jolson. Close, but no, it was it was Larry, not Olivier Larry Parks. It was so long and so boring I didn't enjoy it at all. But I got home and my father was very, very, very cross. Was it not suitable? Well, no because it was a Sunday and it was, you know... Oh, yes. So you weren't allowed to do anything like that. So it kind of put me off a bit. So after that, the first thing I saw was Hamlet. And that was just as scary. Just as scary. MAGGIE Ooh. I've never known my father as cross as he was that day. What did your parents make of you going into this job? What did they make of me going into this job? Well, I think they were a bit puzzled. How did you begin in the theatre? Did you act at school? The very first definite step was when I was still at school. They had a frightfully good thing that when you'd finished you know, general school certificate you usually had about two weeks at the end of term which was kind of dead time. And I immediately went to the Oxford Playhouse. In The Letter, I think it's The Letter, I played Uh, Chinese boy. Uh, a Chinese boy in an opium den. Of course you did. - Yes, 'course I did. And... right at the beginning of The Letter I was the Malayan woman. And you were Uh, Chinese... And Uh, Chinese boy. God, can you imagine my make-up? Oh! DIALOGUE FROM ROOTS PLAYS You don't have to make no effort for them, they come easy. But we know where the money //es They say, 'He// we do, the workers have got it. A/night then let's give 'em what they want. If they want words of one syllable we 'll give 'em that then. If they want the third rate blast we '// give 'em that then. Anything's good enough for them 'cause they don't ask for no more The who/e stinking commercial world insults us and we don't give a damn. Well, it does serve us r/jg/7t. It is our own fault. We want the third rate and we've got it! We've got it! We've got it! JII\N mm. You know, such a leading part that hardly exists anywhere. You know, Beatie is the centre of attention is the centre of the story instead of being, you know, on the side the decoration bit the support The female is absolutely at the centre of it. And it's that feeling of elation exhilaration when you know you're in charge. Oh, yes Do anything you thought wrong, no no I have too much honour to desire it. Don't you think we may as well leave honour out of the argument? Ah. We are not in the first rank of world beauties. That was my mother who sent me off to the Old Vic Theatre school and saying, you know, OK, you're on your way out there. You're no oil painting my girl but you have the spark. You've lovely expressive eyes and thank God you've got my legs and not your father's.' Madam, I'll see you. I was very lucky in the way that your mother said that to you. It was the school teacher who was encouraging me to go into the theatre and he invited an actor to come and see me to ask his opinion and, accidentally, I heard him say, I don't know what to do about her. I think she's probably a very good actress, or could be but I'm worried about her looks, because she's not what you would call pretty I was listening to this, quite happily actually and then he answered happily for me which has kept me going throughout the whole of my career 'No, no, she's not conventionally pretty in any way but do you know what, she's sexy ' : Ah. I spent two days the other day trying to remember Andre Previn. I could not think of his name. Isn't it so easy? I spend all my time thinking, What did I do last weekend? 'Lucy used to borrow from a woman who wore gators and galoshes and those plastic mackintoshes and a rather grubby husband that she only wore on Sundays Why do I remember things... Where's that from? One of those Oxford review. 'And a rather pallid husband that she only wore on Sundays. When she sat behind the teapot handing fancies to the vicar.' I don't know. Where does it all come from? Kind of jammed full of rubbish my head. Very difficult. Has anybody said go? - Yes. Oh, go - Yeah. What's the play, what's the part? THEY LAUGH Can you remember the first time you came to this house? I was with very small people small children. And I've got a picture of Joan just vanishing into the room downstairs and that wonderful lime walk out there was this high where it's all overgrown now. So it was when Richard was tiny and Chris was tiny. Babies. Lots of babies. I can tell you a story about Richard when he was a very small person. In the hall there was a dumbwaiter and Richard, as a small person used to just nonchalantly post any mail that there might be down there. And one Christmas, I remember Larry standing over him because he'd... Larry was beseeching this child and he's... because he couldn't find the keys to the bar that was at the end of, erm and he saw Richard looking a bit furtive and he was leaning over him saying 'Where are the keys to Daddy's num nums?' THEY LAUGH And we thought it was wonderful that this quite fantastic actor was reduced T@ @@yn "mum mum. 'Where are keys to Daddy's num nums?' I think he'd posted them down the wretched thing. THEY LAUGH AnyWaY I suppose that's what it was all about in those days. The children. Very small people running around Why are you so tanned, is that all Cornwall? Cornwall. Doesn't happen to me. Mama thinks I'm living in a convent. A secluded little convent in the southern part of France. Mama doesn't even have an inkling that I'm working in a nightclub in a pair of lacy pants. So... 6%. fir # If you run into my mama # Don't reveal my indiscretion # Give a working girl a chance # I'm trying to think how old I was in the sixties. 34, 44... 26 at the beginning. I think that I thought it was much more to do with being in the theatre and, like, and it was fun and things were loose. I don't know. - Perhaps we swung a bit early. I think we did. - Do you think? I'm sure you and I did. I'm pretty sure we did. I guess I was swinging at the end of the fifties. We behaved pretty badly actually, Judi. I don't think you and I needed the sixties. JUDI LAUGHS My courage, try by combat if thou darest. And thou shall find that I exceed my sex. Resolve on this. Thou shall be fortunate if thou received me for thy warlike mate. "Not Fade Away" by The Rolling Stones # I'm gonna tell you how it's gonna be # You're gonna give your love to me SCREAM # I'm gonna love you night and day # Well love is love and not fade away # Well love is love and not fade away # My love bigger than a Cadillac # I try to show it and you're drivin' me back # Your love for me has got to be real... # Come on, love, let's be having ya You stinking copper! Filthy, stinking copper! CROWD CLAMOURS I sat down in Trafalgar Square with Vanessa. EILEEN So did I. And then Vanessa got arrested and remembered she had a matinee. EILEEN LAUGHS I sat down. It was probably the same thing. Julian said... I was married to Julian Glover then and we all sat down. And first of all, John Osbourne was taken away and then Vanessa was taken away and you were probably... Were you taken away? Oh, no, I hid. Well, you hid. Well, Julian went away and I thought 'I've had enough of this.' And I got up and went home and I remember buying some crumpets on the way home. And Julian was furious with me cause he spent a night in the cells and came back the next day and said, 'What happened to you?' Where were you?' And I said, 'I suddenly thought I wanted to go home.' We weren't allowed sometimes at home to talk about politics or religion. When you were young? - Yeah. No, nobody spoke about it in my house at all. Not much. No, I don't remember debates at school or anything. You went away to school, didn't you? Well, I was at boarding school in York, which is my hometown. But I still had to stay there, you know... The Quaker's. I loved it. I remember asking you about it, rather nosily and you said 'I just think it's a very good idea each week to just collect yourself and have a bit of silence Be calm. Well, it's very soothing. It's like, you know, like having a massage in a way. I told you about Maggie and I on The Marigold Hotel. We were in Udaipur and we went for a head massage. An Indian head massage. Well, of course, it's legendary isn't it? Yes. That I would like. We thought this will be absolutely wonderful. She massaged our heads like that and we were in the same room very quiet, very, very quiet and just smelling lovely, you know. And as soon as she's finished she went whack! I just... - EILEEN LAUGHS Are you alright? I just want a glass of water. That was a gin and tonic. I know that now. Oh. Oh, good grief This is from York Film Archive and it's of the mystery plays. It hasn't got any sound but we think... What year? '51 or '52 Well, if it's '51... Oh, wait a minute. Is that you? No. Now wait a minute. Can I have it very close? - Yes. JUDI Oh. Er... Who is that? Oh, I wish I could see. I'll try and freeze frame. Yeah, that would be good. We were wondering whether that was you there. That's what I wondered Can I just look closely? I can't see May I ask, did you have tits even then? Well, that person has. Because you have very pretty tits there. I don't think I had them like that. How old were you then? You're tiny there. In '52... - EILEEN You were 18. Yes, yes, yes, that's Judi OK, just play it a tiny bit more. - You have an awful wig on, it's... We all had them, those gold wigs. And there's everybody going in to see it with their rugs, look. So this is in '52, yes? St Mary's Abbey. My father played Annas the High Priest. My mum made the costumes - Look at them all. And then there's lots of behind the scene shots. God, I remember that, climbing up there and we were all in these great big arches. Do you know what colour dress you had? White, all white with a gold collar and gold wigs. And is that you there then? I don't know, there's a bit of horsing about going on there. Sort of costume change Oh, costume change. Oh. Oh, these are all devils. These are all devils. Is that thunder? Oh, that's the thunder there, yes. Thank you, darling - Oh, gosh! Oh, now that's where we were, that was me. That was just because a May bug flew up my sleeve. A May bug? That's lovely, thank you. David Charles used to say With all wit that we wield we worship thy will thou glorious God that is ground of all grace with steadfast song let us ever stand still to be fed with the food of beholding thy face' A wonderful man called Alfred Bristow. He'd say 'When hast thou Lord who ownest all hunger or thirst since God art thou. Bits of it I can remember really clearly. Oh, my word! What wonderful footage. What a lovely thing to have. OK, so you're going to head towards the step. And here's the door. Shall I put your hand on the frame? Brilliant. I've got you I did not sleep last night. You know that awful thing when you don't - Oh, God I do. Everything was going round in my head what we talked about. Who was the first dame? Joan, were you the first dame? No, I wasn't. Jude was the first. I was putting down the red carpet for all my friends. You phoned me when it happened to me. And you said it doesn't make any difference, you can still swear. Yes Do you remember? - You can swear more, actually You can swear more, yeah Just try and do it privately I won't do it now. In America though they call you Dame Plowright don't they and Dame Smith and Dame Atkins? Mrs Dame. Mrs With John Standing, when he went through an airport and they do all that thing with your passport. And my gm an mm. Haw me my " cause he is a Baron 'Have a nice day, Baron.' I said what is that about? What are you supposed to say to a Baron? I don't... 'Have a nice day,' I guess Did any of you consider not being a Dame when you were offered? Yes. The letter had got lost in the post. So I suddenly got a phone call saying 'Are you or are you not? What is your answer? We haven't received it. And so she told me over the phone and I said 'Oh, oh, I don't I don't know what to do. I don't know what to say ' And she said, I just remember her saying Oh, do say yes Do say yes But then I asked for some time to think about it. I don't know. And then I was as pleased as punch that I did it. The most excellent Order of the British Empire to be a Dame Commander Civil Division. Dame Eileen Atkins, for services to drama. I was just so thrilled that my father was alive. But that's mostly the point, isn't it? Yes. It's for other people who've helped and got you where you are. It's not really you The order of the Companions of Honour to be a member Dame Maggie Smith, for services to drama. I think it's much nicer being a Lady which you were before being a Dame. Well, darling it's quite difficult when you've got two titles People don't know which to use. You'll have to grapple with it, Joan. THEY LAUGH It's so much nicer to be Lady somebody than Dame. Oh, darling, is it? Now I'm not sure about titles at all, really. I have a feeling that Russia's way of calling you a People's Artist. But you accepted it. I did, because everybody else had. Did you feel left out? Well, it's a kind of an acceptance isn't it, of work achieved. Dame Joan Plowright for services to drama. I remember Joan saying on Tea with Mussolini they said something like Dames and Joanie said 'No, one Lady, two Dames' I remember that very well. Walking the streets of Rome trying to find a hotel. I'll never forget it. Oh, that was wonderful. And we got into the hotel, and you were shown to your room. And somebody was showing me to my room. This can't be right. And as I got to my room you appeared around the corner. You said 'We're not stopping here it's a knocking shop.' It's a knocking shop' yes. And it was 12.30 in the morning I'll never forget it. And nor did we stay there. And we all landed up together, didn't we. Yeah, well, we went... you and I went along to the Grand, and I said... You went round the whole of Rome. No, but Joan asked... you asked at the Grand... Do you have any rooms?' And he said Madam, we have 150 rooms - JUDII We did. We went to the Eden and do you remember in the bar at the top you weren't allowed to eat there? We used to go and have drinks and drink a whole bottle of Prosecco. Mm W mm" Yes, and then try and guess where our rooms were. THEY LAUGH Oh, well, we're not supposed to be talking about that. No, we're not supposed to be talking about things like that. INTERVIEWER Reviews'? You don't read them. You certainly don't read them. Somebody will always tell you won't they? Oh, yeah. Particularly if it's dreadful. Caryl Brahms years and years ago I was just going to say Caryl Brahms. ...came up to me at a party when I was about early 20s and said 'I'm so sorry I had to be so cruel to you.' And I hadn't known, and I didn't know what she was talking about. Of course, that was the nicest way I could have answered her. I mean, it was a good thrust back. I said 'I'm sorry, I don't know what you're talking about.' Yes, quite right But it was genuine, I didn't know what she was talking about. And after that I thought Oh, you must check up on what's said about you.' Well, I think that's not wise. Madam, I'm here. What is your will? She said about me as Juliet she said, 'A good try but Rosalind lden should have been playing the part THEY LAUGH Oh, well, off the mark! Who said that? - Caryl Brahms. It's funny isn't it how, that is 1960 It's funny now isn't it that you should remember it then. You remember the bad ones if... Yes. Best just not read it. You kind of know. Talk more about getting old, if you will. You all seem terribly young. - I thought we were acting it quite well. Fuck off, Roger - THEY LAUGH Frankly Let's say it's a good job I've got hearing aids in and I can hear what you say because. MAGGIE And me. Hands up who hasn't got hearing aids here? You need to get them. - I do need to get them. You need to get them, Jude! And then there is the question of sight loss. Well done. Have we got three eyes between us all? But I'm saying something about... oh, well we could give these things round to read. Or no, Roger said that, and I said, 'ls there nobody who can read? Who can read Judi said she's got to have a huge print. I've got huge print Do you find though that... do you know what I really don't like? That people, after a certain age go can't... I want to say... if I can't do it, I'll tell you that I can't do it. I mean, warn me about steps and things but, you know... There's a very, very delicate line because you need help, you need help. But it's like when I was stung on the bum by a hornet, last year Oh, yes, and that awful... yes, say. And somebody, a paramedic walked into the room who was about 17 and he said 'What's our name?' JOAN Oh! So I said... SHE CLEARS THROA 'Judi, my name's Judi ' And he said, And have we got a carer'? And I blew my top I blew my top I'm afraid, I completely blew it. I mean, I would tell you what I said. You can't probably say it I said 'You fuck off'. I said 'I've just done eight weeks in The Winter's Tale at the Garrick Theatre!' I said. THEY LAUGH I was so angry. That's the kind of thing. Have we got a carer?' What's our name?' I know. That doesn't change, does it? That doesn't change somebody 'What's your name?' If you want somebody to say that, you say, you know you don't put in a kind of person that's... an invisible person who's standing next to you. I don't like it when people ask if you've sorted your funeral out. Oh, Lord. Do you remember, Miriam asked you that? Miriam Margolyes? She'd got a lot to sort out. Because she said she'd sorted it all out and knows exactly what she's going to do. And then she'd said to you 'Have you, Jude?' And you said 'No I have not ' And she said 'Why?' And you said, 'Because I'm not going to die ' THEY LAUGH Which I know is true. - Pathetic talk, isn't it? It was a very chilling moment. But she's got it all organised and lots of people do. And we don't. - Shall we talk about something cheerier? Yes, talk about Yes. I think so. OK, here's something cheerier. Can you talk about working with your husbands? Well, there's a dead silence there. I'm just trying to think which one? Which one? Well, obviously mine was the most difficult. We all found him tricky - Yeah. It wasn't just you, Joan THEY LAUGH You weren't in the same position. No. George Bean came and said Look, we would like you to play Jean Rice.' Of course the lure of his name too. Except you knew you couldn't make much of a show on your own and of course, the part wasn't anything that was to shout about but you'd be on stage with somebody who everybody will be looking at not looking at you. But, the lure of just being on the same page of a programme was great Hey, tell me something, will you? I want you to tell me something - Mm. Well, what would you say to a man of my age marrying a girl of about your age? Oh, Dad. You're not serious It was momentous... Earth shattering for me. A very, very strange experience. Although it was a great privilege to share in his life as well as it being, you know, a bit of a nightmare sometimes. You married Sir Laurence Olivier just before he started the National Theatre and your career since then has been very tied up with the National Theatre - Yes. Do you feel because of that, and because of the marriage that you have lost opportunities that you might have had otherwise in other forms of theatre? Well... That's a That's a very difficult question to answer, Sheridan because You know The actual burden of going on, knowing that, you know those who don't really go for you are going to say, Well, of course, you know it's her husband who put her up in it. That was my sort of burden. This is good news. The best you have given me yet I wish you joy of it, if you find it so. I don't remember working... Oh, yes, It was perfectly alright working with my first husband and my second one wasn't an actor so... Snap. What about working with Robert, Maggie? Well, that, yeah, well, that was tricky. A lot of times it was fine, but then it really got very tricky because he was not a well man and that was hard because you didn't know if somebody was coming on stage or if they were indeed, what state they'd be in. Do you want a cocktail? There are two here There are two over here as well We'll have my two first. Shall we get roaring, screaming drunk? I don't think that would help. We tried it once before and it was dismal failure. It was lovely at the beginning. You have an immoral memory, Amanda. Here's to you A lot of it was very, very merry and lovely. So I shall remember those bits. Yes, because you were a golden couple. We were a golden couple You were. Come back Jean, I need you. Judi, will you talk a little bit about working with Michael? Mm... Y, nnn How long did The Fine Romance and things like that, how long did all those go on? Oh, ages and ages and ages This is a fine romance I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry. Ow, that was my head! Working with Mike oh, we had the most wonderful time, but he used to laugh. Mikey was a terror. I mean, I'm bad at corpsing Mikey was very bad at it. We did a play called A Pack Of Lies There was a long scene, where Richard Vernon had to say... Have you noticed a Vauxhall car @@ lmMlmE=@lf AW ? And he said one day to us... Have you noticed a Vauxhall car? Registration number... F1U1I2? We had to almost stop the play Are you all going to work forever? Well, I don't suppose one can but I'd like to. Well, I would work forever if I'm asked. If we're asked. If we're asked - What? If we're asked. We're going to work forever if we're asked. But you're always asked first, if I may say so. No, don't turn. - I'm turning on you now. It's all coming out now. One of my hearing aids has gone. What were we just talking about? Do you want one of mine? - What? Do you want one of mine? No, it won't fit. It's just what was the last thing said? Are we going to go on working forever Joan? Oh, was that it? And I said Jude gets all the parts first, but we know that. Oh, yeah, I tell you. My agent in America said to me, when he knew I couldn't do very much because of the eyesight going. And he said 'Well, if you do want to come over again we'll look around for a nice little cameo that Judi Dench hasn't got her paws on ' THEY LAUGH How rude. It's not rude at all. - It's very, very rude. Well, that's America that's how they talk. Why does every day involve a fight with an American? I used to find the most exhausting thing wearing those hats. They're the heaviest things in the world. I had a hat, it was like the Albert Hall. It was this huge and so heavy. I said please take it off please take it off. How many episodes were there? I mean how many series? Three? I don't know. I don't know. No, I think there was more. I don't know, I haven't seen it. I haven't seen it yet. But they gave me a box set. What? - They gave me a box set. But I haven't got time. I shall have to hasten, because I won't last long enough to see the wretched thing, will I'? So, was Mrs Brown your first queen on film? Mrs Brown must have been the first time, yes I played a queen. I leave for Deeside - The Queen forbids it. And that really changed my career. Mrs Brown? Yeah, because I wasn't asked to do anything in films. I'd done a few films before that, but very, very little. Now they never stop Without you I cannot find the strength to be who I must be. We-ass Can you talk about being on really big film sets? Like huge film sets? Like the Bond film set or Harry Potter'? As for you two gentlemen I just hope you realise how fortunate you are. Not many first year students could take on a fully grown mountain troll and live to tell the tale. Actually Alan Hickman and I we just ran out of reaction shots. Because they would always shoot on the children first not surprisingly And then they turn round and we'd be going... Or listening, you know, and it's absolutely extraordinary. Who's this one here? CAMERA SHUTTER CLICKS I was just surprised I thought that was part of Harry Potter. He did it really, really well Are you a camera? You've met before - I know. We met yesterday But you're always in the scene. Would you like to come and sit here? I'm suddenly sort of aware that you're there more than anybody else. Would you like me to move? I would love it if you moved. I honestly think you've taken an awful lot of photographs. Yes,lhave. Yes. It is his job to do that. I know it is, darling, but He's not going to be upset now? Of course not, no. Look at him, he's been there forever. He's going to go and bang about a lot. We've got quite enough here. Oh. For God's sake. Just get out of the way Don't you recognise the car? - Madam. Oh, talk about Bond. I want to know how you do covered in jewels. I was never covered in jewels. After it you were. Afterwards, did you say? It was Michael really who said... because when I was asked to do it I was kind of really taken aback and Michael said 'I long to live with a Bond woman,' he said. 'I long to, you have to do it ' My sons went to a little preparatory school not that far from here where Kim Philby was the main pupil. Michael's hero. Kim Philby? Have you ever seen that bit of film with him when he was suspected of being a traitor and he calls the press into his house? Well, if there was a third man were you in fact the third man? No, I was not. Do you think there was one? No comment. Every actor should look at that MAGGIE I know. Because Because, I mean, you cannot begin to think for a minute that he's lying - I know. And it was in his mother's flat wasn't it? I think it was - Mum was there listening to all the lies. And you think, of course don't be so stupid of course he's not duplicitous in any way whatsoever. Good, good acting Good spying. Fear is a common threat over the last two days. Fear. Fear is petrol. It's the payoff. Fear is petrol - Yes. Talk about that. That's amazing - Fear. Fear is what? Fear is the petrol, isn't it? Fear, you know, it generates such an energy, fear being frightened - Yes. That if you can somehow channel it it can be a help. INTERVIEWER Really good. OK, end board I'm so sorry we are very, very tired. You know, so you have... they've told you how old we are haven't they? I've been informed. Nobody's told how old. I'm not telling anybody. INDISTINCT CHATTER Do you think we ought to have a glass of Champagne round this one? God, I could kill it - Yes. I think it's far too late. Why didn't anybody think of that a few hours ago? Dame Ede had speaking teeth and eating teeth. And she used to go home with her speaking teeth in am when ph@1m@ am my 'You'll have to go and get my teeth because I'm very hungry.' She'd left them in the dressing room? Yes. So Diggy had to go and get them from the dressing room... Teeth? Did you say teeth? She used to have speaking teeth and eating teeth. And we think we're in trouble. I mean, two lots of teeth I know! A handing? She was always saying 'I am so lonely.' Well, I know the feeling. Don't you? - Yeah. Yes. - But I... But now, this is what I'm saying the awful thing is... I used to think awful things about Dame Ede. Yeah. - And I don't now. CORK POPS Oh, my goodness. Are we doing anything? We're drinking Champagne. It's always worrying when you see these guys, so look at them sneaking up on you - Look, look, look. We have to have a sip. Listen, listen. - Are we talking? What would you like to talk about? No, I meant are we on yet? We're waiting for Roger to shout - Are we on yet? Yeah, they never stop - They never stop. Oh, they never stop? - Cheers to everybody. To us - Thank you. To you, everyone What? - You're not having any. Who? - We're drinking our Champagne, Joan. Alright)' What would your advice be to your young selves? Oh... Christ. II mum my... Get in touch with yoga or mindfulness at quite an early age. And learn about the brain and what influence it has on the body. All those things that I've come to be interested in later on in life and could have done with doing earlier. And I think Joan kind of leads... ls a version of mine, which I would say not to be so very bad tempered and confrontational. Mm-hm. And listen more. WM, me? EILEEN Yes. Honest to God I don't know because most likely I wouldn't be listening. But I would say, when in doubt don't. : Hm. That's good I think I would. It should be a motto, that. I wish I knew the Latin of it. What, 'When in doubt'? - When in doubt, don't. Jude. I would say, try not to be so susceptible to falling in love. Quite so pathetic. THEY LAUGH BLEEN Jude! No, be more susceptible. No. Less susceptible. Well, whatever it is it's too late. What else? What else? Somebody said it's too late. I said it's too late. Oh, it's never too late. Oh, do stop, Joan. You know it is. - It's never too late to fall in love. What is that out of'? The Boyfriend? - The Salad Days, isn't it? Oh, is it The Boyfriend? - No, I don't know. I think The Boyfr/endit is, is it? "Cello Suite No. 1" by JS Bach Oh, I'm so sorry. You wrote criticisms of Laurence... When you were at school, you didn't think much of his... Oh, I'd wrote to my parents, yes He was Hamlet and... yes, I had seen Michael Redgrave first. I wrote and said Laurence Olivier was a bit ham. Yeah. - Hammy. Did you ever tell him? No, I didn't actually, no. No, because, you know, when you're in the throes of love and swept off your feet, you don't - No, I meant later, Joan. I don't think I did later. No, I'm sure I didn't. Did you see him as Henry V? I can remember being taken in Plymouth to see it. I just loved it. I remember it so clearly. I wrote to him apparently and Tamsin found a school girl diary of mine which said, Got a letter back from LO You see, that's what I was saying That's what you was saying not writing to my parents. MAGGIE No. Yes That was saying how much I'd loved it, of course. Have you got the letter? So it was a fan letter? Yes, it was a fan letter and I got this letter back which I know now was from Dorothy Welford. THEY LAUGH mm With a stamped Which thousands of school girls got. I know Maggie had a tough time with him on occasions. Well, we do know that - Oh, no, come on. No tougher than with a lot of actors. No, you were also, you know... my kids called on you when I was away when he was suddenly taken ill again. You came round and held his hand. Yes. - You did, in my absence This hand held the hand. JOAN LAUGHS Yes. I remember him saying to me, I had a bit in Semi-Detached where I had to go off stage, run upstairs, run down again and come on stage. And he said to me, 'You're always a fraction late And I said, 'Well, that's how long it takes me. I do it as quickly as I can to run up the stairs outside the door and down again And he said, 'My dear, it's an illusion. You don't have to run up the stairs'. I remember going to see a play in New York with an English actor when the notices had paid a lot of attention to a great cry he did at the end of the second act or something and the night we were there it didn't happen and we went round to see him and said you know, 'Where was it?' He said 'I felt I couldn't reach it and I didn't want to give the audience a lie. Oh my. But then I said well, you know 'The whole thing from beginning to end is a lie After all, Hamlet does get up and take a curtail call. So there was a whole argument going on then. Oh, well, maybe you should just try the cry whether you're in the mood or not. You should be in the mood is the answer. It's acting You find the way Yes To make it happen and appear spontaneous. And that's the difference between actual truth and illusion. BIRDS SING OUTSIDE mm. I'm lost for words. I have nothing left to say. CROWD CHEERS "Honky Tonk Women" by The Rolling Stones # I met a gin-soaked, bar-room queen in Memphis # She tried to take me upstairs for a ride # She had to heave me right across shoulder # Cause I just can't seem to drink you off my mind # It's the honky tonk women # Gimme, gimme, gimme the honky tonk blues # Our revels now are ended. These our actors as I foretold you were all spirits and are melted into air? Into thin air? And like the baseless fabric of this vision the cloud-capped towers the gorgeous palaces, the solemn temples the great globe itself yea all which it inherit shall dissolve. And like this insubstantial pageant faded leave not a rack behind. We are such stuff as dreams are made on and our little life is rounded with a sleep I hope you're getting the others to do this. Yes, we are - Roger. For you, I promise You swear? I swear. - You swear? I swear Dame Judi Dench, Dame Judi Dench Dame Judi Dench, Dame Judi Dench Dame Judi Dench. Dame Judi Dench, Dame Judi Dench Dame Judi Dench. Dame Judi Dench, Dame Judi Dench Dame Judi Dench. Dame Judi Dench, Dame Judi Dench Dame Judi Dench, Dame Judi Dench Jane Doobie Dench. SHE LAUGHS I like Jane Doobie Jench. |
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