Do you recall having
any conversation about killing
Nicole, even if you didn't mean
it seriously?
None. Absolutely none, ever.
O.J. Simpson forced to
testify for the first time about
his role in a brutal double
murder by the grief-stricken
father of one of the victims.
Ron and Nicole were butchered
by their client. Do any of you
believe otherwise?
Simpson is grilled...
If she fell when she was
outside, it's 'cause you made
her fall, right?
No.
...in Fred Goldman's
relentless quest to find justice
for his son, Ron...
We've waited a long time
to have an opportunity to ask
the hard questions.
...this time,
in a civil trial.
You ever strike her?
No.
Did you ever hurt her?
Yes.
The odds were against
Fred Goldman.
We already knew the power
of O.J. Simpson. He had
unlimited resources, fame,
fortune, people who adored him.
Simpson had already beat
the murder rap in criminal
court, giving his civil lawyers
a road map to victory...
Goldman family,
they weren't rich people.
Fred had a real job.
...and the attorney chosen
by the Goldman family to bring
Simpson down had no experience
in pursuing this kind of case.
I'd never handled a wrongful
death case. In fact, I'd never
litigated a personal injury
case. I was a business
litigation lawyer.
I don't think we had
any comprehension of what was
gonna be involved.
There was a mountain
of evidence that showed
Mr. Simpson's guilt, and you all
know as well I what
that evidence is.
For the first time ever, the
deposition tapes of O.J. Simpson
testifying will be broadcast at
length, and viewers will be able
to hear Simpson try to account
for his actions when challenged
directly by the lawyers bringing
the civil suit.
He would lie about
every important fact.
A new trial...
Best of luck, champ.
Best of luck.
...a new attorney...
I said, "You just put your
fists up. Is that what you did
that night?"
...and damning new evidence.
It was proof that he ha
the shoes on his feet,
that he owned them.
I would have never worn
those ugly-ass shoes.
Even with the evidence being
as good as most murder cases
could ever hope for, no one knew
if it would be enough.
Would you raise your right
hand, please? You do solemnly
swear that the testimony you
shall give in this deposition
will be the truth, the whole
truth, and nothing but
the truth, so help you God?
I do.
Thank you.
Good morning, Mr. Simpson.
Good morning.
My name is Daniel Petrocelli.
I represent plaintiff Frederic
Goldman in this lawsuit
against you.
We wanted some justice,
and we wanted that to come
from a court, and it didn't come
from the criminal trial.
Ron got zero justice.
I will forever be proud
of my son and my family.
Thank you.
And when we discovered that
there was another avenue,
a civil trial, we thought of
that as the only way we're gonna
ever have a chance at justice.
Can you tell me what you told
Vannatter and Lange where you
were between 10:00 and 11:00?
Whatever they asked me,
I told them. Whatever they asked
me, I told them.
I recall that, yes.
Well, what I want to know is
what answers you gave.
To what? Ask me the question
like they asked me, and I'll
give you an answer.
Where were you between 10:00
and 11:00?
I don't know if they asked me
that question. I was home.
If they did ask you,
what did you say?
I don't recall if they asked
me, so I don't know what I said.
Why don't you ask me?
I just did.
Where were you between--
Why don't you ask me?
All right, Mrs. Robertson, do
you have the envelope with the
sealed verdict forms, please?
Yes, Your Honor.
All right, would you give
those to Deputy Trower.
I was convi beyond any
doubt that he was gonna be
found guilty.
All right, Madam Foreperson,
you've had the opportunity
to review the verdict forms?
Every piece of evidence
pointed to one person and one
person only.
"We, the jury in the
above-entitled action, find
the defendant, Orenthal James
Simpson, not guilty of the crime
of murder."
When it ended the way that it
did, it felt like a slap
in the face, because the Halls
of Justice, that's where you get
justice. That's where everything
balances out.
"In violation of Penal Code
Section 187A, a felony,
upon Ronald Lyle Goldman,
a human being, as charged
in count two of the information.
We the jury..."
For us, it was this smack
across the face and head
of finding out that Ron just got
nothing, just received no
justice at all. Two lives were
gone, one nearly decapitated,
my son stabbed 33 times.
That meant nothing. It was
theatrics at its finest,
and a murderer walked free.
When they panned to the
family, Kim was sobbing. It was
like being stabbed in the heart
with a knife to see it and know,
for us, it was a bad verdict.
For them, the person who killed
their loved one was gonna
walk out and throw a party.
Last, um--June 13, '94...
was the, um, worst nightmare
of my life.
This is the second.
[ overlapping chatter ]
Ah, man.
Good job.
Let's go to the Criminal
Courts Building for the
prosecution news conference
about to begin.
For the Goldmans, it seems
any hope for justice is gone.
They had taken on a media
goliath and lost.
When we discovered that there
was another avenue, a civil
trial, I don't think we had
any comprehension of what was
gonna be involved, what it was
gonna take, how it was gonna
happen. It was just something
that we learned about and said
this is a second chance
at justice.
No one had really heard
of civil cases back then. Didn't
feel right, because we were
suing, and the only punishment
was money, so it was very
confusing. Just kind of
the internal debate of whether
or not we wanted to do that.
In a legal system, there's
two ways to proceed in a case.
If you're charged criminally,
you're in the criminal justice
system, and 12 jurors have
to unanimously agree 12 to 0,
beyond a reasonable doubt, that
I committed the crime. Starkly
different in a civil case.
You get 12 jurors in the box,
but you only need 9 to rule
in your favor, and it's a lesser
standard, what's called
a preponderance of the evidence,
just a little past 50%.
If the jury finds that,
they can find liability.
Many in Los Angeles are
outraged over a system they
believe can't deliver justice.
Paul Marciano, the founder
of the Los Angeles-based
clothing manufacturer Guess,
Incorporated, is among them.
I followed the case.
I followed the fact. I followed
evidence, blah-blah-blah,
and the verdict come, and it's
like that case was about the
incompetence, the incompetence
of the District Attorney office.
To pursue a civil case, the
Goldmans will need an attorney.
Marciano believes his lawyer is
perfect for the job, his name
Daniel Petrocelli.
And I said, "Dan, this thing,
what happened in our city,
is crazy. This is wrong."
And he said, "Dan, you must
take this case." I said, "What
are you talking about?" He goes,
"You must take this case.
The country needs someone
like you. They need to have
this verdict turned around."
And I said, "I would like you
to do that case." And he said,
"I've never done one criminal
case in my life."
I don't do those kinds
of cases. I've never handled
a criminal case. In fact,
I'd never litigated a personal
injury case. I was a business
litigation lawyer.
I said, "You have to do it,
not for you, for everybody
in the city. A lot of people
cannot understand or comprehend
what's happened. At least
that someone will bring a sense
of justice here."
I was quite sure that what
I was going to do was explain
to Fred why I really couldn't
take his case, but when I opened
the door, there was like a
transformation that took place.
He was almost like a television
character to me up to that point
in time, someone I had seen
on television.
Ron and Nicole were butchered
by their client. Do any of you
believe otherwise?
But when I saw him in person
for the first time, uh, and
the reality set in and I could
see the loss and the pain etched
all over his face. And when he
ushered me into the living room,
furniture was in different
places, pushed to the side,
and it was dark, and there was
this very deep, thick sadness
that immediately enveloped you.
It had the smell of death.
We sat with him, and we had
our list of questions, and we
interviewed him, and something
just clicked. It was just--
It sounds kind of hokey,
but it was kind of kismet.
Dan made a comment to us
that, if we chose him to be
the attorney, he would want us
to be involved, and we kind of
all chuckled and--you know,
'cause there was not a chance
in living hell that, um,
we weren't gonna be involved.
And we talked, and we talked,
and we talked. As we spoke
through the wee hours of the
morning, the reality of his loss
became real to me. It was raw.
It couldn't help but affect you.
And, you know, as a lawyer, I'd
been representing companies and
wealthy individuals, and here
was a chance to represent
a father fighting for his son.
Before I knew it, it was 2:00
or 3:00 in the morning,
and by then, I knew I was gonna
do this.
That's it? Done?
Petrocelli warns the Goldmans
the case will not be easy,
but in a c case, they will
have some advantages.
In the criminal case, Simpson
had the Fifth Amendment right
not to testify. In the civil
case, I explained to Fred, he
would have no such choice. If he
refuses to testify, he will lose
the case by default. In fact,
he would be required to testify
long before the trial
in a pretrial deposition.
Did you ever strike her?
No.
Did you ever hurt her?
Yes.
Did you ever physically
hurt her?
Yes.
You ever bruise her?
Yes.
Did you cause bruises
on her body through acts
of violence by you towards her?
I believe the bruises that
were on her body, I was
responsible for if she got 'em
from me being physical with her
or if she got 'em when she fell
when she was outside.
I was responsible for it.
If she fell when she was
outside, it's 'cause you made
her fall, right?
No.
'Cause you were
hitting her, right?
No.
You were pounding her?
No, that's incorrect.
You made her face black and
blue, didn't you?
If her face was black and
blue the next day or two days
later, I was responsible for it.
No matter how it happened
that day, I was the person
responsible.
KFWB news time, 4:28.
Well, the father of the late
Ron Goldman, Fred Goldman,
announces a new attorney
to take on O.J. Simpson
in civil court.
...Goldman family hires
a business lawyer...
The attorney, Dan Petrocelli,
says he hopes to depose
O.J. Simpson for the civil
action soon.
In October, 1995, news that
the family of murder victim
Ron Goldman hired little-known
civil litigator Dan Petrocelli
to represent them in a wrongful
death lawsuit against O.J.
Simpson spread like wildfire.
The next day, I checked
my voice mails, and on a typical
day, I might have, you know,
2 or 3 voice mails, and I had
25 or 30 voice mails, and they
were all from members of
the media, all asking, you know,
for interviews. s terrified
listening to this, like, "What
have I gotten myself into?"
I'd never spoken to a reporter
before. I remember walking
to this bank of microphones and
seeing this sea of reporters,
and I had this complete
out-of-body experience, like
"What am I doing here?" This is
like a scene out of a movie.
I had a full-scale anxiety
attack. I felt myself choking. I
couldn't swallow. I just wanted
to get through this alive.
We think that, when all is said
and done, we will find a jury
to conclude that, uh, Mr.
Simpson was the man responsible
for the death of Ron Goldman.
We already knew the power
of O.J. Simpson's money and his
team. We knew that he could get
any expert, any attorney.
He could have 10 attorneys if he
wanted to, investigators. He had
unlimited resources, fame,
fortune, people who adored him
despite a mountain of evidence
showing that he was a double
murderer. And here was
the Goldman family, sad, broken.
They weren't rich people. Fred
had a real job. They didn't have
tons of money. They couldn't
just reach out and say, "We want
the biggest team of civil
litigators." They weren't
in that position. They were just
heartbroken people who had been
terribly wronged by the criminal
justice system, and they had
one last chance to try to get
some kind of justice.
To my surprise, my colleagues
and my partners at the law firm
were immediately supportive that
we would take this case on, uh,
we would not charge Mr. Goldman,
and that we would do it
as a public service.
Pursing the case could
potentially cost millions
of dollars.
Mr. Goldman, for his part,
helped raise money to defray
certain costs of doing the case.
We had to hire experts.
We had to create a war room for
the course of the trial. We had
all sorts of travel expenses.
People started sending money
to help with our case. It was
expensive, and people wanted
to help, and people wanted to be
part of our journey and our--
and our mission and our path
to justice.
When we started getting
responses, it was really
mind-boggling to open up these
letters. There was one that was
a little card from a child,
that in very noticeably child
handwriting said something
about, "We love Ron," et cetera.
The letter was in crayon from
a child saying, "I just want
to--I just want to help," and it
was a dollar bill.
You know in your heart that
Mom and Dad had something to do
with that, but it was
gut-wrenching.
The support we received from
our clients and from
the community in general was
quite extraordinary.
Day one, Petrocelli's David
against Simpson's Goliath.
Time was of the essence.
A trial date is set for October.
We had to do a virtual
autopsy of what transpired
in the criminal case. We got
access to all the evidence.
I personally immersed myself
in everything that transpired
in that case, including reading
every book that had been written
about that case.
Once the plaintiff's team
assembled itself, everybody went
to work 24/7.
Much of the work had to be
done prior to depositions,
which in turn had to be
accomplished before the trial.
One of the things that's
a little bit different about
a civil case and a criminal case
is you're allowed to take
discovery. And that means
in this case, we could take the
deposition of Simpson before the
civil trial started and see what
his answers were going to be
to the questions we were gonna
ask him on the witness stand
at the trial, and thou can
try to find out what his story
is gonna be, what his excuses
are gonna be.
We call that process
of confronting a witness with
a contrary prior answer
impeachment. I knew going into
this deposition that the whole
objective was to gather as much
impeachment evidence and
impeachment ammunition
as I possibly could for use
later on when Simpson was
examined at trial.
Petrocelli's plan to trap
Simpson is simple. Prove that he
was capable of physically
abusing his ex-wife, prove that
the physical evidence in the
case pointed only toward him,
and prove that on June 12, 1994,
Simpson had motive to kill
his ex-wife Nicole and a young
waiter named Ron Goldman, who in
a tragic twist of fate, was
returning a pair of glasses that
had been left at the restaurant
at which he worked by Nicole's
mother. He was simply at the
wrong place at the wrong time.
I knew that he wasn't going
to confess to the murders,
so I knew that everything or
just about everything he would
say would be a lie.
Once Dan Petrocelli got
the case, he embraced it 1,000%.
Some people would look at the
Simpson case and say, "Too many
details. Don't get lost
in the weeds." But in this case,
the devil is in the details.
Much of the work I did
on this case was to try to
understand deeply the motive for
these killings, what happened
in that relationship, what went
wrong in that relationship, what
went wrong on those particular
days leading up to the murder,
what happened on that day,
and not only understanding,
but being able to then prove
that he was capable of doing
such a thing, to separate
the persona from the person.
In this conversation, do you
recall saying you would
kill Nicole?
Absolutely not.
Do you recall having
any conversation about killing
Nicole, even if you didn't mean
it seriously?
None. Absolutely none, ever.
The court was very concerned
about protecting the fairness
of the trial process. The date,
the time, and place of Simpson's
deposition were kept a secret.
When I arrived to my office
where the deposition was going
to take place, it was ringed
with television trucks,
cameras, crews.
There was all kinds
of media. We couldn't figure out
how it ever got out, but
frankly, the assumption was that
their side must have let it out,
'cause we certainly didn't have
any reason to want to let it
out. And it was, "Here we go
with the circus again."
We've waited a long time to have
an opportunity to ask the hard
questions and, uh, have
questions answered under oath,
and I think out of it
will come a lot of very
interesting things.
When I first met Simpson
and was escorting him into
my offices for his deposition,
he was very friendly, wanted to
chitchat, and part of me wanted
to jump right in and talk with
him and ask him how did he dodge
that tackle against UCLA.
And then I had to have
a reality check. Said,
"Wait a second. I'm here
representing my client,
and he killed my client."
So we are in the internal
conference room on the 10th
floor of our building, and this
is where the majority, if not
all, of the depositions in the
Simpson civil case took place.
Mr. Simpson sat in this chair
when he was grilled for 11 days.
The court reporter would tend
to sit here and transcribe
the depositions. And then we'd
have Fred Goldman typically
would be somewhere around the
middle of the table towards the
back, never wanting to really
get too close to the killer.
We had discussions with Fred
and his family about preparing
themselves to be in the same
room with O.J. Simpson, to, you
know, sit across a conference
room table no more than three or
four feet from Simpson. It was
difficult for him, and he told
me not to worry. He goes, "You
know, I'm not gonna blow up.
I'm not gonna do anything rash."
But a lot of people in the media
were always questioning, you
know, whether Fred would come in
with a gun, for example, because
of how raw Fred's feelings were.
As much as I would like to
have grabbed him by the throat
and strangled him, knowing that
it was on camera and knowing
that ultimately he was probably
going to be exactly the same in
the courtroom, I was fine. Let
the son of a bitch hang himself.
He, by choice, murdered two
people by choice, and, uh,
he should never be left alone
for that reason. Again,
he belongs in jail on death row.
Besides the Goldman family
attorneys, also in the room are
attorneys for Sharon Rufo,
Ron Goldman's birth mother,
who had been estranged from Ron
for 15 years, and the attorney
representing the family
of Nicole Brown, John Kelly.
Mr. Simpson can go out there
and speak for himself.
My client, Nicole--and
Mr. Simpson knows this better
than anybody--cannot speak
for herself right now.
Simpson is represented by the
well-known trial attorney Bob
Baker, who has 25 years of civil
litigation experience, and Bob
Blasier, who was also a member
of Simpson's legal Dream during the criminal trial.
Simpson would come through
the door to the north. Fred
would enter on theth side of
the room. We tried to keep 'em
apart. Simpson was a pretty
arrogant guy, and you knew when
he was in the building.
There were times when I could
hear him coming from floors away
laughing and joking. He was very
obnoxious. He felt invincible
after skating by in the
criminal trial. He was just very
pompous and very arrogant and
walked in and tried to own
the place. We all wanted
to protect Fred from that.
And the deposition started,
and we had another opportunity
to see the killer and his
arrogance at work. He was in
a chair that allowed him to lean
way back, and he would lean way
back with his arms behind his
head like this. And as Dan was
asking him questions, he would
go, "Yeah. Yeah." Or he'd
mumble, and sometimes he'd put
his head down on the table.
He just didn't give a crap.
It was as simple as that.
It was just a big bother to him.
[ laughs ] I'm sorry.
The deposition was
wide-ranging, not just,
you know, "Where were you on
the night of June 12?" but going
through his entire history and
particularly the history
of his relationship with
Nicole Brown Simpson.
And you cut her lip,
didn't you?
That's incorrect.
You hit her with your fist,
and you caused her lip to split
open. Is that right?
That's incorrect.
Because these murders
happened for a reason.
This wasn't a random drive-by
shooting. This wasn't a robbery.
This wasn't a rape murder. This
was a rage killing motivated
by the intense personal feelings
between Simpson and his recently
estranged ex-wife.
We were convinced that we had
to establish motive. You know,
we had to show that there was
a reason why he would commit
this murder, because he was,
you know, a rich and famous guy.
He wlready separated from
Nicole, so what would drive him
to do this? We did have to dig
deeply into the relationship
between the two and
to the obvious anger that
he had towards Nicole.
We all knew on our side of
the case that he would lie about
every important fact. That was
no mystery. He wasn't going to
admit to killing Nicole and Ron.
He was taking that to his grave,
and so his whole story was going
to be one big lie. We knew that.
He knew that. I believe his
lawyers knew that. I believe
everybody knew that. So this was
going to be an exercise in
getting as many lies as possible
on the record and then later on
showing to the jury that in fact
they were all lies.
How do you account for
the finger marks on Nicole's
throat, Mr. Sin?
I don't know. I don't know.
I never saw 'em, so I can't
account for 'em.
And you caused scars on her
face, didn't you?
Uh, that's incorrect.
We spent a fair amount
of time trying to prepare him,
um, but he still has a bad habit
of volunteering stuff and trying
to explain things.
I'm wrassling her, and I'm
holding her. It's pretty tough
not to have the person around
their shoulders and their necks
and their bodies. We were
wrassling, and, uh, it could
have happened, yes.
What could have happened is
that you could have had your
fingers around her throat and
caused those marks. Is that what
you're saying?
His narrative was to say that
they wrestled and pushed each
other around. He would not admit
that he struck her in any way,
shape, or form.
With Simpson, I remember it
was quite easy to get him to
talk, and he was a good talker,
too. I mean, he could talk to
a post. You ask him a question,
he would go on and on.
Now, he would spin his side
of the story, but the more he
spoke, the easier it was for us
to later on attack it and show
that he was lying just about
every single important fact
in the case.
And you remember choking her?
No. I know I didn't
choke her.
You remember having your
fingers cause marks to be left
on her neck?
Not specifically. I think any
marks that's on her, I take full
responsibility for. I don't know
what else you want me to do.
I take total responsibility
for it.
Why?
Because I shouldn't have
handled the situation the way I
did. I--All my life with Nicole,
no matter what was going on,
I handled it without being
physical with her, and that
time, I got physical with her,
and I'm ashamed of it. I wish it
not had happened, and I--I make
no excuses for it.
It came across as being a
little bit disingenuous for O.J.
to say he was responsible,
but then not--not acknowledging
what they claim he did.
"Maybe I was responsible,
but I--I never hit her." And
then he would always somehow or
other try to blame her. "It was
her fault. She would argue with
me, or she would start all these
arguments. It was her fault,"
and, "I would never hit her.
I don't know how she would
get black and blue," and, you
know, he never owned anything.
I'm not asking you
about the moral or other
responsibility. I'm asking
for what happened, okay?
Yes.
You had your fingers around
her throat, correct?
Uh, I could have touched her
neck, yes.
What do you mean, you could
have touched her?
I could have--
This was a violent episode,
wasn't it?
Yes, it was.
You were enraged when you had
this act of violence towards
her, weren't you?
Mm, I don't know if that's
totally true, but I was angry,
yes.
Very angry, right?
Yes.
And rage is a fair
description of your--your state
of mind, correct?
No, it's not.
Not anger?
Anger, yes.
Intense anger?
Anger.
Angry enough to hit her?
That's enough. That's enough.
No.
For 11 days in early 1996,
attorney Daniel Petrocelli
interrogates O.J. Simpson about
his possible role in the murders
of his ex-wife Nicole Brown
and a young waiter named
Ron Goldman.
Did you ever meet
Ron Goldman?
Not that I know of.
You ever talk to Ron Goldman?
Not that I know of.
Did you ever see Ron Goldman?
Not that I know of.
During the entire time of
the criminal case, Simpson, of
course, was incarcerated, and he
spent his time reading every
single thing he could get his
hands on about the case. We knew
that he had committed to memory
what every witness had said.
I remember deliberately deciding
that I would almost question him
randomly in a sort of haphazard
manner so that he could not keep
linear track of everything in
his mind as he had memorized it.
Did Nicole say to you in May or
June of 1994, "If you really
want this marriage to work out,
you're gonna have to go to
therapy to control your anger"?
No.
So just to give you a very
simple example, rather than have
him explain to me, you know,
what he did chronologically from
the moment he boarded that plane
to go to Chicago late
in the evening of June 12,
I, for example, asked him,
"Mr. Simpson, what were you
wearing when you were flying
back to Chicago?"
What clothing did you put on
when you left Chicago to go
back to L.A.?
[ groans ]
We've been through all this.
[ sighs ] I started off
with some jeans, and I ended up
in--before I left, with some
black pants and a white shirt
and whatever.
So then I might have gone
on to an entirely
different subject.
Now, when you were a youth,
were you involved in any,
uh, gang fights?
Yes.
Were you a participant?
Yes.
Did you use a knife in any
of those?
N
What weapons did you use?
Fists.
So I would jumble up the
story so that he couldn't just
give it back to me in the way
that he had memorized it.
I think it was very effective,
because you could see
his mind racing.
Tell me about pulling the Bronco
in. You walked out the door
and went out the--Ashford.
Yeah. I went out on Ashford.
What did you do?
I pulled the Bronco in,
took the golf clubs out.
Do you have any reason
to believe it's not yours?
Well, I know that--
I don't know that...
Do you believe you're
on the Bundy property...
I don't know.
I recognize it as a white...
...she needed some cough syrup.
Are those your socks?
I have no way of knowing.
We certainly weren't gonna
just accept his answers. He was
gonna get drilled, and the more
we drilled, the more
uncomfortable he became, and
that's a wonderful sight to see.
When you were half dressed,
you came down and dropped
the suit, a bag,
on this golf bag, correct?
I don't know if it was on it,
but in the samace, yeah.
Petrocelli's peppering
of questions included the status
of his relationship with
then-girlfriend Paula Barbieri.
You had a monogamous
relationship with her
at that time. Is that right?
With who?
Paula.
Monogamous?
Yeah.
I'm a little confused
by the question, but if--
She's the only girl I had sex
with from--for probably
the previous four weeks.
Did you say something
in the message to the effect
that, uh, "Hi. This is O.J.
I'm unattached for the first
time in my life"?
Possibly.
Was that true?
Mm, possibly.
Dan's an effective
cross-examiner, and, like all
effective cross-examiners,
he'll use different paces at
different times. At times, he'll
go fairly slowly, allow the
person to fully answer, think
about the next question, and go
on to that. At other times, you
want to push the person a little
harder. You want tk staccato
questions. You want to make sure
that--that you're throwing them
off-guard and getting the truth
out of the person.
He knows exactly where he's
trying to take the witness,
what answers he's looking for,
what facts he's trying
to establish and lock in.
She said that you, uh, were
screaming and yelling and using
profanity at the table.
Is that true?
I don't believe so, no.
And she said you, uh,
followed her down
to the ladies' room?
No, that's wrong.
She said you barged
into the ladies' room, kicking
the door open, going inside?
That's wrong.
Said you made a big scene
in front of the patrons and
the restaurant manager?
That's--She said that, yes.
Yeah. Is that true?
No.
Can you think of any other,
um, brand names of shoes that
you have worn?
No.
You're not gonna try to trip
him up by asking him the same
question 15 times. That's not
appropriate conduct
at this deposition.
I'm trying to get the truth.
I'm not trying to trip him up.
He's telling the truth,
he won't be tripped up.
Petrocelli obviously wanted
to get into some of the things
that would help his case more.
Bob Baker didn't want O.J.
talking a lot. He would keep
telling O.J., "Don't answer
that. Don't answer that.
Don't answer that."
How many times during
the entire time you lived
with her at Rockingham were
you unfaithful?
How many extramarital
relationships did you have?
Well, he said they had a
great relationship. I'm entitled
to examine him about that.
You don't want to answer
that question?
The evidence amassed by
the LAPD was sufficient to have
convicted Simpson many times
over. They had his blood
evidence. They had DNA evidence.
They had hair fiber evidence,
They had clothing fiber
evidence. The one piece
of evidence that they did
not have was the shoes
that the killer wore.
The Scientific Investigation
Division of the LAPD discovered
that thiotprint left at the
crime scene was left by a Bruno
Magli shoe. It's a distinctive
kind of footprint, and it's
an expensive, not common pair
of shoes.
The impressions were
measured. They were size 12.
9% of the population wears
size 12. Simpson wears size 12.
The police tried to find if
Simpson had a pair of those
shoes, and they were never
able to locate them, and Simpson
denied that he ever had.
When I questioned him
in his pretrial deposition
about whether he owned
Bruno Magli shoes...
Did you ever buy shoes that you
knew were Bruno Magli shoes?
No.
Then I said, "Why would you,
uh, never own those shoes?
You own lots of shoes."
'Cause I know if Bruno Magli
makes shoes that look like
the shoes they had in court
that's involved in this case,
I would have never worn
those ugly-ass shoes.
You thought those were
ugly-ass shoes?
Yes.
I said, "Well, why are they
ugly-ass?"
Why were they ugly-ass shoes?
'e in my mind,
they were.
What about them was ugly,
Mr. Simpson?
The look of 'em,
the style of 'em.
What--What about the style?
I don't know. They were ugly
to me. Aesthetically, I felt
that they were ugly, and I guess
beauty is in the eye
of the beholder, and to me,
they were ugly shoes.
Little did Simpson know
his words would come back
to haunt him.
Nicole Brown Simpson's
friend, Faye Resnick...
...Faye Resnick's testimony
has raised a lot of questions
about Simpson.
...before you go in.
Lawyers in the O.J. Simpson
civil case traveled to New York
City to take the deposition
of one of Nicole Brown's close
friends, Faye Resnick.
You were a friend of Nicole
Brown Simpson. Is that right?
Yes.
You may have to speak up a
little bit so that the people at
the end of the table can hear.
Yes, I was.
Faye Resnick is a woman who
had been very close to Nicole
and had written a book about
her, so she was deposed in order
to kind of find out what she
knew about what had happened
to Nicole.
She knew a lot about the
relationship between Simpson and
Nicole, and she was one of our
witnesses to the relationship
and how Nicole feared him.
Ms. Resnick testified under
oath that you called her on
May 2 or May 3, a telephone call
with her. Do you recall that?
No, not particularly, no.
This telephone conversation
that you just described, Ms.
Resnick, was this the first time
that you had ever disclosed
to O.J. Simpson your knowledge
of his prior abuse?
Yes, it was.
Did he say anything to you
about the abuse when you brought
it up in the conversation?
Yes, he did.
Apart from expressing to Faye
your concerns over Nicole,
did you--did you ever express
or vent any anger about Nicole?
No, not any anger, not to--
to the degree that you mentioned
earlier, no.
What did he say?
He said the doesn't beat
her any more.
He used the words "any more"?
Mm-hmm. Yes, he did.
I reminded him that he had just
told me that he would kill
Nicole, and he reiterated that
he had no option essentially,
that she was bringing it
on herself.
In this conversation,
you told Faye that you would
kill Nicole. Do you recall
saying that?
Absolutely not.
Recall having any
conversation with Faye Resnick,
uh, about killing Nicole, even
if you didn't mean it seriously?
None. Absolutely none, ever.
He was aggressive. He was out
of control. He was spewing with
anger. It was--It was
frightening for me to be
on the other end of the phone,
having even the distance
of our homes. I was afraid.
I don't know about angry.
I was concerned about what the
heck was going on with Nicole.
I know I had expressed to Faye,
and I expressed to the Browns.
Our objective was to show
that he would lie and lie and
lie over and over and over
again, um, and convince the jury
that if he were a liar, he were
a murderer.
The pregnancy beatings,
where he used to kick her
in the stomach and tell her
that she was worthless.
Do you know whether she ever
suffered any injuries while she
was pregnant?
No.
And she said that, um...
Walk. Yeah.
She said that Sydney saw
some of them, and she, um--
Can I stop for a minute, please?
Faye Resnick was able to kind
of describe how fearful Nicole
was and some of the stories of
him being abusive towards her.
She painted a very clear picture
of how he and Nicole's
relationship was.
Another friend of Nicole's,
an LAPD officer who was retired
at the time of the civil trial,
specialized in domestic violence
cases.
Did members of the LAPD
frequent your house
from time to time?
One individual, uh, had used
my pool, I think, when he was
still with the LAPD.
Who was that?
Uh, Ron Shipp.
I've known O.J. since--at
this time, since I was 16 years
old. Never seen him mad.
Been over at his house a million
times. I never heard him,
you know, moaning and groaning,
"Oh, that son of a--" You know,
I mean, he would complain about
some people, you know, and--you
know, but not really bad. One
day, Nicole asked me to sit down
with her and talk, and as we got
into the conversation and she
started talking about him,
she started crying. Now, Nicole,
everybody knows her. She's a
pretty tough woman. I had never,
ever seen her like that ever.
And I looked at her face, and I
could tell she had heavy makeup
on. There was marks, bruises on
her face. She got real serious,
and she just said, "You know,
Ron, he did it to me." And
brought down a bunch of pictures
of the past when he had beaten
her. And I was like, "You gotta
be kidding me." Every ounce of
respect that I ever had for him
kind of went out of the window.
And if Nicole said you did
those things to her, she would
not be telling the truth?
Is that what you're saying?
Correct. That's correct.
She would be lying?
Yes. But she would not tell
that lie under oath.
She would tell that lie when
she's not under oath?
Possibly, yes.re saying?
She would lie
to herself even?
I leaned over, a-and I hugged
her, and she put her head
on my--on my--you know,
my right shoulder or my chest,
around that area, and then she
just laid into me. She just told
me everything that happened
between them and how I didn't
really know him. She started
asking me about the domestic
violence, the class that I
taught. She looked at the lesson
plan and she said, "Do you think
there's any way that you could
have this conversation with him
and let him read this?"
Going back, what happened
with Shipp a couple days later?
Well, he came by.
What did he discuss with you?
Well, he wanted to discuss
what--I don't know if he wanted
to discuss what was happening.
He tried to talk to Nicole.
He came in and talked to me,
um, and he said that he had
some expertise in this field.
Field of domestic violence?
Yes, and he made
some suggestions.
I told him when he was trying
to figure out what he should do,
and I said, "Man, what I think
you should do, I think you
should, uh, say, you know,
you had a lem, you're gonna
get help and admit, you know,
that you did what you did,
you know, 'cause there's
no getting around it." I said,
"Women's battering groups,
they'll probably embrace you."
What did he suggest to you?
He wanted me to make
some public statement.
About?
About the incident.
And you said no.
Yes.
Why?
'Cause I didn't want to.
...swear that the testimony
you shall give in this
deposition will be the truth,
the whole truth, and nothing but
the truth, so help you God?
Yes, I do.
Thank you very much.
Perhaps one of the most
dramatic moments in the
deposition process comes when
Simpson's best friend, Al
Cowlings, testifies. Cowlings
drove his white Bronco with
a suicidal Simpson in the back
seat when Simpson was on the run
from police five days
after the murders.
When we went down to the
hospital, I stood by her. And
when--when the nurse asked her
what had happened, Nicole looked
at me, and I said, "Nicole, you
got to tell 'em." And she told
them that she was hit.
By?
By O.J. I don't know--I don't
know if she said O.J., but she
said she was hit. They asked her
"How did you sustain your
injuries?" or whatever like
that. She said, "I was hit."
Okay.
It was clear that he was deeply
conflicted about the case,
because he was very close
to Nicole Brown Simpson. He was
almost like a brother to her.
Was there any doubt in your
mind as to whether or not Nicole
loved you as a friend?
We had a good friendship.
Okay. You think she
loved you?
She never told me she loved
me, but I know we had
a good friendship.
Okay. Did you love her?
Yes.
Al Cowlings was a very good
friend of Nicole's as well
as O.J.'s, so he was obviously
very upset about what had
happened with the homicide.
Cowlings was even a groomsman
at O.J. and Nicole's wedding.
This is to O.J. and Nicole
with all my love. I wish you
nothing but the best.
It became a big issue for
him, in terms of how he dealt
with the fact that Nicole was
murdered and O.J.'s
his best friend.
Mr. Cowlings, I'm going to
ask you to look at this picture.
It's been previously marked
as Exhibit Number 45.
My take on Cowlings was that
Simpson had ducked a life
sentence in the criminal case.
The civil case was just about
money. He loved Nicole also,
and he wasn't going to lie about
anything, and, you know,
if Simpson got whacked with
a judgment or something,
he just didn't care.
Ask if you recognize
that picture.
We confronted A.C. Cowlings
with photographs of Nicole,
the battered photographs with
the black eyes and things of
that nature. And A.C. Cowlings
started to cry, and it was
heartfelt. I remember clearly
him breaking down and crying,
and I think he said, "I loved
Nicole," and it was genuine.
And who do you recognize
that to be?
Nicole.
Late January and early
February, 1996, the weeks-long
deposition of O.J. Simpson
continues in the civil case
brought against him for the
wrongful deaths of Nicole Brown
and Ronald Goldman. In his
criminal trial, in which he was
acquitted, Simpson's attorneys
had accused members of the LAPD
of being racist and having
planted evidence at the crime
scene and at Simpson's home
in order to implicate Simpson
in the slayings. His attorneys
in the civil trial attempt
the same strategy.
As ofe 17, Mr. Simpson,
did you have any information
that caused you to believe that
you were being framed or set up
by the LAPD?
No.
The whole defense was, was
they were trying to say either
that all of this incriminating
evidence against Simpson was
planted or that somehow all
of the incriminating evidence
against Simpson was contaminated
by incompetent police officers,
that some of the officers were
incompetent and couldn't do the
job and other ones were tricky
and sneaky and could go behind
the scenes and plant evidence
without being caught. And they
expected you to buy both of
those arguments, because either
one alone could not possibly
prove that he was not guilty.
Simpson was examined by the
police and then members of his
defense team immediately after
the murders. He told detectives
he could have cut his hand while
packing for a trip to Chicago
the night of the slayings and
that the wound had nothing to do
with the stabbing deaths
of Nicole Brown and Ron Goldman.
Though he originally told
the police he cut himself
at home and reopened the cut
in Chicago, he now changes
his story.
Did you tell the police,
"Hey, I cut myself last night.
Maybe that's from me?"
No.
Did you offer any explanation
at that time with respect
to those blood drops?
No.
Did you conclude in your own
mind that perhaps those blood
drops were left by you because
you had cut your finger
the night before?
No, no.
You had no thoughts one way
or another how those blood drops
got there?
I don't think about blood
drops. I was thinking about
Nicole, my kids, and why was
I handcuffed?
Over the course of several
days of depositions, Simpson
says that he cut his finger
in his Chicago hotel room after
learning of Nicole's death.
I broke a glass in the
process of going back and forth
to the phone and trying to get
packed. I cut myself trying
to move the glass out of my way.
Somewhere in that, that happens.
Did you remember cutting
your finger?
I remember bleeding.
Do you remember cutting
your middle finger on...
No. I remember bleeding and
then seeing that I was
bleeding, so...
When Dan asked him, "Well,
you say you might have cut your
finger in Chicago. How? How did
you do it? How did you break
the glass? Was it with your left
hand? Your right hand?"
And exactly how did you cut
it with the glass?
I was, um, trying to scoop
the glass into the sink with,
uh, some toilet paper and,
I believe, a towel.
At the crime scene, there was
not only the blood of Ron and
Nicole, which, of course, you
would expect 'cause they were
murdered there, but Simpson's
blood was there, too. And
Simpson's blood was on the glove
that was found at his house, and
it was in his car, mixed with
the blood of Ron and Nicole.
And he came back from Chicago
with a big cut on his hand,
so obviously, those all
tied in together.
You weren't aware of any cuts
on your left hand prior
to coming to Chicago, correct?
No. I was--No. I never--No,
I never saw a cut on my hand.
No, I haven't, no.
That's correct.
That's correct?
That's correct.
Armed with the tape from the
police, Petrocelli knows Simpson
is lying, and he continues
to hammer away ae former
football star as part of his
strategy to lay a trap for
Simpson when they go to trial.
You can't just go in
a deposition and say, "Tell me
what happened that day." You
have to know what happened and
target your questions to make
sure you get that person on the
record on the very exact piece
of information that you want.
It's like surgery with words,
and Dan was a master of that.
Obviously Petrocelli did not
think that it really happened
that way, and that's why he was
peppering him with questions
after question after question,
because he wanted to try and
show lack of credibility
on O.J.'s part in terms of his
explanation of what happened
in Chicago.
Dan just kept asking the
question, and if he didn't get
an answer, he'd ask him again.
Of course, the killer was always
getting frustrated that he
didn't like things not going his
way, uh, but ultimately he was
pushed to answer.
Did you cut it on one
of the broken pieces of glass?
[ sighs ]
He went for detail,
and Simpson got more and more
distraught the more the cuts
were talked about.
Yeah.
On what piece?
Heh. Can we take a break?
Yeah, sure.
Jesus Christ.
A young lawyer came into
my office. She was on our legal
team, and she plopped down the
paper of record in the Simpson
case, which was the "National
Enquirer." Every day, wrote
a story about the Simpson case.
Right there was a picture of
Simpson walking in the end zone
at Rich Stadium in Buffalo as an
NBC TV announcer with a pair of
shoes that looked like the Bruno
Magli shoes, but then there was
a blow-up of one of them, and it
clearly was a Bruno Magli shoe.
I would have never worn those
ugly-ass shoes.
It was a big deal, but it was
the "National Enquirer," right,
so who's gonna believe them?
They don't have a lot
of credibility. We hired
a photographic expert. He was
former FBI, you know, one of
the top photographic experts
in the world, and he analyzed
the photo. This photo was not
doctored. This photo was real.
We ran the photographer down.
He was living in Buffalo. His
name was Harry Scull, Jr. Merry
Christmas. The guy had, like,
the camera equipment he used
to take the photographs. He had
the negatives. He had his ticket
to the game. He had everything.
He was a string photographer.
And that is a picture of you
looking at Exhibit One, correct?
It appears to be me, yes.
Okay. And the jacket you're
wearing, could you describe it?
No.
Do you remember owning
that jacket?
No.
Do you remember wearing
that jacket?
No.
"That's your face, right?"
"Yeah, that's my face."
"And that's your shirt, right?"
What a the shirt?
Looks like a white shirt.
Nothing stands out about that
white shirt?
Uh, no. I like the collar,
though.
What do you like about it?
I don't know. It looks nice.
I remember him looking at the
collar of the shirt he had on.
"That's a nice shirt or a nice
collar," or something, and,
you know, we're talking about
a murder case, and he's talking
about, "Oh, I like the way
that--that looks there.
That's sort of nice."
And those are your shoes,
aren't they? Looking at the
close-up of the shoes, do you
believe that those were shoes
that you owned at that time?
No.
I said, "Well, that's you,
isn't it?" Goes, "Yeah, that's
me, but they are not my shoes."
There was no way those
pictures were doctored. It was
proof that he had the shoes
on his feet, that he owned them.
But we also had blood evidence
that only pointed to one person,
and we still couldn't get a jury
to find him guilty. So now I'm
thinking, "Oh, now you put him
in shoes." I don't know that
that was gonna be what was gonna
make this jury think that he
was the killer. I wasn't totally
prepared to put all
my faith in it yet.
Photographs of shoes similar
to those worn by turderer,
dozens of pieces of evidence
from the crime scene, proof of
continual domestic abuse from
police reports and friends--the
plaintiff's attorneys had their
legal guns loaded going into
trial. But would it be enough
to beat O.J. Simpson?
Good morning, murderer!
Good morning, murderer!
Everyone wondered would these
civil lawyers be able to do
something that had seemed
impossible? Could they surmount
the fact that O.J. Simpson was
a famous person and many, many
people just simply could not see
him as a murderer? No one knew.
No one knew if it would
be enough.
The civil trial took place
in Santa Monica three or four
blocks from the Pacific Ocean,
where the courthouse is located.
The reporters and the members of
the media were fond of calling
it "O.J. by the Sea." I remember
saying to the firm that I didn't
think there would be much
publicity about the case,
that the press and the public
were certain to lose interest.
Go, Juice, go! Go, Juice, go!
Go, Juice, go! Go, Juice, go!
He's a murderer!
Murderer!
He's a wonderful guy!
We love O.J.!
Boy, was I wrong.
How come you can't deal
with the facts?
I wanna tell you something.
I could not walk into
the courthouse without being
followed by throngs of reporters
all the time.
O.J. Simpson was very
arrogant. He was jovial,
and in the morning when he'd
drive in with his bodyguards,
he'd try to engage the media.
Best of luck. The best
of luck, man, best of luck.
You're the man. We love you.
He was back to being,
you know, O.J. of the Hertz
commercials.
That doesn't look like me.
[ laughter ]
He's the greatest!
O.J.!
I think he was very
confident. "I beat the first
trial. I'm gonna beat
this one, too."
Because there are no cameras
in the courtroom, there is
no video or audio record
of the trial. However, many of
the questions and answers from
the depositions in the case are
similar to what went on
inside the courtroom.
Would you raise your right
hand, please? You do solemnly
swear that the testimony you
shall give is the truth,
the whole truth, and nothing but
the truth, so help you God?
I do.
Thank you.
Good morning, Mr. Simpson.
The testimony of Simpson was
much like the deposition in the
sense that we all knew he was
not gonna confess to killing
two people, and the exercise was
really one designed simply
to show that he would lie about
his involvement in these
murders, the idea being that if
the jury concluded that he was
a liar, then he was a murderer.
When I confronted him in cou
in front of a packed courtroom,
no more than three or four feet
from him, I was a little
nervous. I remember starting my
examination of him at trial by
confronting him with his vicious
spousal abuse of Nicole Brown
Simpson, including beating
her face almost to a pulp
on New Year's Eve, 1989. We had
photographs that she had saved
from that beating, that we
displayed to the jury on
a big-screen television that sat
on a stand right next to Simpson
while he was on the witness
stand. And when I confronted him
about causing all the injuries,
you know, her bruised and
battered face, he tried to avoid
answering by, uh, saying,
"I take full responsibility
for what happened to her."
Yes, I saw her bruise, and I
felt responsible for those
bruises. They came from me or if
they came when she fell outside,
in any event, I was responsible
for it.
That was his mantra. He had
said that repeatedly when--
from the time he'd gotten out
of jail in a lot of his public
statements. "I take
responsibility. I take
responsibility." And I remember
saying, "I didn't ask you
about whether you take
responsibility." Said,
"It's the jury's job to decide
if you take responsibility."
One of the things Dan did and
did very effectively was he did
get Simpson on the ropes, and he
did get under Simpson's skin and
did show Simpson's true colors.
I found myself, believe it or
not, in competition with him.
A person who had no athletic
ability up against one
of the greatest athletes of all
time, and here I am in combat
with this guy.
Simpson is a confrontational
guy. He's also a very
competitive person, as is Dan,
and it was a battle. I mean,
the two of them were battling.
What'd you do to her?
I wrassled her.
What does that mean?
That means I had my hands
on her, and I was trying
to force her out of my bedroom.
We wrassled.
Simpson is up there talking
about wrestling. "Well,
we wrestled a little. We--
We tussled. We pushed back and
forth." "Did you ever
strike her?" "No."
"Did you ever slap her?" "No."
If she fell when she was
outside, it's 'cause you made
her fall, right?
No.
'Cause you were
hitting her, right?
No.
You were pounding her.
No, that's incorrect.
And the pictures in living
color of Nicole's bruised and
battered face were flashing by.
He couldn't even go so far
as to say, "I made the mistake
of my life that day. I hit her."
Couldn't do that. You know,
that wasn't--that wasn't part
of his persona. It was always
somebody else was to blame,
never him, never, never,
never, never.
You could see him starting
to lose that mask,
the happy O.J. Simpson mask.
It started to fade.
He at one point put up his
hands and said, "I tried to,
like, push her away," and he put
up both fists, like balled up
like this, and I said, "You just
put your fists up. Is that what
you did that night?"
O.J. Simpson's attorney,
Robert Baker, was all
smiles when he arrived
at the courthouse, but inside he
started to build his case
by tearing down Nicole Brown
Simpson, basically putting her
on trial. Baker told the jury it
was Nicole who was the pursuer
in the months before the
murders, trying to shoot down
the theory that Simpson was
a jealous, obsessed ex-husband.
In fact, Baker said it was
Simpson who wanted to end
the relationship because
of Nicole's mood swings.
Simpson's attorneys
attempted to defend him
by attacking the lifestyle
of his former wife.
I had found out that things
were going on, and that was
essentially what I was
yelling about.
But that wasn't about drug
use by Nicole?
Yes.
In what sense?
In the sense that I was told
that day about them all doing
drugs at a place called
the Monkey Bar.
One of the strategies for the
defense was to cast Nicole Brown
Simpson in the most negative
light they could. Uh, trophy
wife, married a high-profile
athlete because of all
the attendant benefits related
to that, a party girl. I mean,
the list went on and on.
There was a lot
of information that she was into
drugs and that she was into
a lot of different guys. We had
to try and show that it was not
all a one-sided situation.
The defense also questioned
the credibility of Ron Goldman.
In the criminal case, the
defense tried to make my brother
out to be, uh, like a drug
dealer and, you know, this
loser. And in the civil case,
they tried to do the same thing.
They talked about that he didn't
finish college and he had
credit-card debt and...
He was a kid. He was 25 years
old, and he was just kind of
finding his way in his life,
and I think that Dan did
a really good job of just
bringing that to the courtroom
so that people could get to know
my brother and to just see him
for this beautiful human that
tried to save his friend,
and I think that's
the legacy that got left.
They wanted to bring in
racism. They wanted to bring in
planting of evidence. It was the
same crap over and over again,
but this was a trial in which
the judge just wasn't gonna
allow game playing. It was gonna
be a legal proceeding. It was
gonna be about the law.
The defense perpetrated this
idea that the police planted
evidence, which was literally
impossible in the circumstances
of the case if you understood
exactly, you know, what happened
and when things happened. And so
I asked Simpson about that.
I said, "Well, you know, we
heard in the criminal case that
you think the police planted
evidence. I mean, what proof do
you have oat?" He couldn't
explain anything. How did
the victims' blood get
in his Bronco?
Do you know why the blood
on the console of the Bronco
is consistent with the mixture
of Ron Goldman's and
Nicole's blood?
No.
How did the victims' blood
get in his bedroom?
Do you know why the blood
on the socks in your bedroom
matched Nicole's blood?
No.
Do you know why
the shoeprints found at Bundy
matched Bruno Magli shoes?
Heh. No.
You have no knowledge about
any of these things?
Mm, other than that what
I heard in court, no.
There were no answers to any
of these questions.
Do you know why the blood
in the foyer of your house
matched your blood?
No.
I remember distinctly
thinking to myself, finally you
have a lawyer in the courtroom
who knows what he's doing.
It was a thing of beauty.
Do you know why the glove
found at Rockingham had fibers
matching Ron Goldman's shirt?
I mean, I have no--No,
I don't. I have no knowledge of
any of this that you're saying.
I'd actually feel bad
r O.J. Simpson, because I knew
that the evidence was mounting,
and I knew what Petrocelli was
doing. He was teeing things up,
his mountain of evidence.
One of the key pieces of
information that the plaintiff's
attorneys hammered home was that
Simpson was further enraged
on the day of the murders
because he received a voice mail
from his then-girlfriend
Paula Barbieri that said she
was breaking up with him.
On the morning of June 12,
Paula Barbieri called
O.J. Simpson, got his answering
service, and left a breakup
message. It was quite detailed.
Basically things weren't
working out. It wasn't what
she'd hoped for. It was a clear
breakup message.
Barbieri did not testify
at the civil trial, but lawyers
played the tapes
of her deposition.
You left the message for
Mr. Simpson 7:00 in the morning
on his Bentley voice mail saying
basically the relationship was
over, right?
Yes.
Did you get a message from
Paula Barbieri?
No.
Did you receive any message
from her before you left?
No.
Did you receive any messages
back from him at any time
on June 12?
Um, yes.
What were the messages that
you picked up? What did
they say?
Um, sort of, "What was
wrong now?"
You didn't get any phone
messages from her that day?
I don't believe I ever
retrieved any message from her
that day.
In other words, from the
content of the messages he left,
you understood that he had
already received your message.
Is that right?
Yes.
We know O.J. Simpson received
that message, because the phone
records show that he did call in
for his messages and he did
receive that particular message.
"Message Manager."
Do you see that?
Yes.
It shows a call of eight
minutes. Do you see that?
Yes.
You picked up your message
at that time?
No.
You know what that entry
is for?
No.
No idea?
At the time, I don't have
any idea, but I'm assuming--
Oh, you told me not to assume.
Well, do you now know
what it is?
I can only assume now
what it is.
Tell me.
I'm assuming it's a message
from Paula.
Following your breakup with
Mr. Simpson, did there come
a time when your relationship
began again?
Yes.
So when was that?
Um, while he was in jail.
The reason it becomes
significant is that Simpson
steadfastly maintained in his
depositions and in his trial
testimony that he never heard
Paula Barbieri's breakup
message. So you ask yourself,
of all the damning evidence in
the case, he's worried about and
lying about that message. So why
is that important to Simpson?
I believe that he did not want
anyone to know his frame of mind
on June 12.
Probably what put things over
the top for O.J. Simpson was
Nicole Brown finally deciding
that she was going to finally
extricate herself from this
relationship with O.J. Simpson,
and I think the evidence
established that that did not
sit well with O.J. He did not
react well to that.
His daughter Sydney had
a dance recital that evening.
Simpson attended the recital,
but when it was over,
he expected to maybe join her
and her family and his daughter
Sydney for the postrecital
dinner, but Nicole Brown Simpson
publicly shunned him. She told
him to get lost. "I don't want
you there." Then Paula, his new
big hope, she dumps him on the
morning of the murders, so he's
lost both. He was excluded from
this family outing. He's lost
that family, and he also lost
the girlfriend that was the hope
for his future, and he is a man
left sitting in his living room,
fuming.
One of the most powerful
moments of the civil trial was
when Fred Goldman was on the
stand. I was questioning him
about the loss of his son and
the relationship that they had.
A few days before, I had Fred
come to my house, and I said,
"Fred, you know, we're gonna
call you this week, and we need
to prepare your testimony." So I
started to get all these papers
that I had ready to go through
various questions with him.
He goes, "We're not gonna
prepare." I said, "What do you
mean, we're not gonna prepare?"
He goes, "I don't need
any preparation to talk about
my son. Just ask your questions,
and I'll answer them."
This was Fred's first
opportunity to really tell Ron's
story from Ron's position,
and it was earth-shattering.
It was extremely emotional.
He was speaking with such
raw, honest emotions about
the loss of his son and how
that will affect Fred and his
family, you know, for the rest
of their lives.
I couldn't have been more
thrilled, my first child to be
a--a boy. He was an amazing kid,
just a super nice, loving, happy
kid. And then as he grew up,
of course, three years later, my
daughter was born. Ron was the
consummate big brother. Wherever
they went, he would hold her
hand, not because I asked him
to, because that's what he did.
If there was ever a time
during the trial that I lost it
emotionally was when I was
talking to Fred. And I say
talking to him rather than
questioning him, because that's
what it was. It was--It was just
a talk about Fred and about
the loss of his son Ron,
a person I never knew,
person I never met, but a person
I grew to know almost, uh,
like he were my own son.
Fred was on the witness
stand, and they ran a picture,
and it was Ron and Kim.
They couldn't have been more
than five, seven. The two of
them were in these snow jackets
with the little hoods. They were
tromping off together in the
snow. I was overwhelmed with
emotion seeing it. That was the
only time I almost ever lost it.
I cried during, uh, Fred's
direct examination. I think
everybody cried, with possibly
one exception, and that was
Simpson and maybe some of his
defense attorneys. It was a very
moving moment in the trial.
The jury felt Fred's pain.
Obviously this is your older
brother. Um, we don't get to
spend very much time together,
so I'm very glad that I was able
to be here and spend this time
with you, 'cause God knows
where I'll be in a year,
so best of luck to you...
There was a videotape shown
of the family, Fred and Ron
clowning around together.
In November of 1993,
my stepsister, uh, had
a bat mitzvah. That's the last
images that we have of him.
Go, Ron! Go, Ron! Go, Ron!
Go, Ron! Go, Ron! Go, Ron!
Go, Ron! Go, Ron!
We were all together,
and there was this great scene
with my dad. One of his favorite
songs is "Old Time Rock and
Roll" by Bob Seger.
...minutes, I'll be late
for the door,
I like that old time
rock and roll...
In the video, my dad and
my brother were standing next
to each other, and they were
kind of like doing the thing
next to each other.
I like that old time
rock and roll
Come on!
Old time rock and roll...
Ah, you guys get ready
for the solo.
That kind of music
just soothes the soul
My brother just had the most
electric smile on his face,
and it was just cool to see
my dad and my brother be
in that moment.
It was almost unbearable
to watch, and I remember
at the very end, we froze it
on a frame depicting both Ron
and Fred just loving each other
and loving life.
It was devastating to look
at that and say they will never
have that again. We finally saw
the destruction of a family
at the hands of a murderer.
O.J. Simpson smiled as he
came to court for the first time
in the new year facing new
incriminating evidence. Fred
Goldman's attorney came armed
with 30 newly discovered photos
of Simpson allegedly wearing
expensive Italian shoes
similar to the ones worn by
the murderer. One picture even
appeared in the Buffalo Bills
newsle in November of 1993.
I hopped on a plane and went
to the Bills' practice facility.
One of the P.R. people pulled
out the--the November, 1993,
newsletter from the Buffalo
Bills Booster Club and showed me
a picture of Simpson in this
newsletter in the Bruno Magli
shoes. I said, "Who took these
photos?" and he said, "Talk to
this guy, E.J. Flammer." He had
30 color photographs that he had
taken of Simpson that day, just
perfect photographs. You could
tell exactly what the heels
were, the make, the color, the
size. It was the aha moment and,
like a fingerprint, put Simpson
at the scene that night.
Do you know whether the pants
that are shown in Exhibit One
are pants that belong to you?
They look a little big on me,
so I would--Normally, I'm pretty
fastidious about my clothing.
Looking at the close-up
of the shoes in front of you,
do you believe that those were
shoes that you owned
at that time?
No.
"Those aren't my shoes, even
though you have a photograph
showing me in those shoes."
So do you believe him? If he--
If he's lying about one thing,
he's lying about the other.
By that time, I think all
the jurors were looking at their
shoes. They didn't believe
a word that--that he was saying,
but I mean, he was
caught red-handed.
He's in the shoes, same exact
shoe that he wore when he
murdered Ron and Nicole.
He was confronted with all
the evidence that showed that he
was lying, whether it be
a cellphone record that showed
that he made a call
at a certain point...
I'm assuming it's a message
from Paula.
That was made
to your Message Manager?
Yes.
Is that what you're saying?
It's what it is.
...whether it be the diary
of his, uh, slain ex-wife,
who wrote about brutal abuse
that she suffered at his hands
in the last weeks and days
leading up to her murder...
She would write in her diary
that you hit her when it
wasn't true?
She never had a diary.
...impeached by witnesses who
came to the witness stand and
testified to things that Simpson
said or did...
What was she saying?
About how bad she felt and
how O.J., uh, hit her and that
she wanted him to, uh,
pay for it.
...and of course impeached by
all of the forensic evidence...
Was the blood found in the,
uh, Bronco and at Rockingham
your blood?
I don't know.
...and then ultimately
impeached by photographs showing
that he wore the shoes
that the killer wore.
'Cause I know if Bruno Magli
makes shoes that look like
the shoes they had in court
that's involved in this case,
I would have never worn
those ugly-ass shoes.
O.J. Simpson was crumbling on
the stand. When it got into the
details, the blood, the cuts,
the specifics, he was crumbling.
I think I'd named and labeled
Dan's deposition outline early
in the litigation as the initial
ass-kicking, and my recollection
was I named his final closing
argument the final ass-kicking,
and it really was. It felt like
we kicked the defense's ass
every step of the way.
We got a call very late in
the afternoon that the jury had
reached a verdict. The judge did
not want to hold the verdict
over until the next day, and so
everybody had to be corralled
and gathered and marched on over
to the courthouse. And by the
time all that happened, it was,
like, 6:30, and courts usually
close at 4:30, 5:00.
[ bystanders yelling ]
There were just masses
of people, and, even though we
were just across the street,
we had to be escorted by police.
And there were chants and
demonstrators, people saying,
"Petrocelli for President"
and people saying,
"This is a crooked case.
It's an illegal case." I mean,
you know, on both sides.
Certainly we hoped in every
way possible that the jury was
gonna find him responsible and
that they were gonna see through
all the lind all the games
and all the bull--[ bleep ].
We were sitting in the
courthouse by then waiting, and
the air conditioning was turned
off, 'cause it automatically
goes off in that courthouse,
so it's getting hot, and it's
getting stuffy, and we're all
jammed into the courtroom.
And I remember how hot it
was. Maybe I was just a lot
hotter than the actual
temperature. I was a nervous,
nervous wreck at that point.
It was almost like do we want
to hear it? Do we not want
to hear it? But we were gonna
hear it no matter what.
Everybody was on pins and
needles. The jury funneled into
the box, and Judge Fujisaki
asked them, "Have you reached
a verdict?" The foreman said,
"We have, Your Honor."
These moments are, like,
etched in my memory forever.
You don't have very many of them
in your life when, you know,
something is about to happen
that you know is going to impact
your life, but this was one
of them.
The jury found Orenthal James
Simpson responsible. You could
hear people breathing,
you know, gasping.
I think the emotions just
exploded when we heard that they
held him responsible.
Then I started hearing
sobbing of Kim and other
family members.
It was very emotional. My dad
was doubled over crying.
We were all holding something,
like each other.
It was outstanding,
wonderful news. It was, um,
some verification of our wish
for justice.
After the verdict was
announced, Simpson walked out
of the courthouse showing little
reaction even when greeted
by catcalls.
Guilty!
[ crowd yelling ]
Guilty!
When we exited the courtroom
and we opened up the door, there
were just thousands of people
standing there with cameras
and cheering...
just cheering for us,
and that was--
I didn't expect that to be
the scene. I had no idea what
was going on out there.
There were people that were
just so proud, and you could
hear them yelling, you know,
"We support you. We love you,
Goldmans." And it was finally
in the record. All that effort
that we had put in, it was
finally written somewhere that
he was responsible.
And I wish a camera had been
in the courtroom. I think
the world needed to see
O.J. Simpson on the stand.
The world needed to see that
a worshiped sports icon in fact
was capable of brutally
murdering two people.
I'll never forget Fred
raising his right arm with
a fist punching and yelling
victory. I'll never forget that.
I was standing right next to him
and Dan. It was an unbelievable
experience, and it just was
epically rewarding.
We were victorious. We had
gotten the court to acknowledge
the er had committed murder.
He was responsible. I grabbed
Dan by the shoulders and shook
him. It was kind of like,
"My God, do you see what
we've done?"
Today is 2 1/2 years, little
over 2 1/2 years, and we finally
have justice for Ron and Nicole.
If it weren't for all these
wonderful attorneys whose
passion, whose belief, whose
willingness to put in 24 hours
a day for all this time is proof
of the kind of people they are,
and I think that's part of
the reason why we're where we're
at today. Our family is grateful
for a verdict of responsibility,
which is all we ever wanted,
and we have it. Thank God.
Relief. Relief was the single
most active emotion that I felt,
just relief that we had won
this case for Fred and that all
these expectations that were
on us had been met.
What an extraordinary honor and
privilege it has been
to represent this man and his
family. They have conducted
themselves with extraordinary
grace and dignity throughout
this entire unspeakable tragedy.
And as I told Fred earlier,
just a few moments ago,
Ron would have been proud.
Ron is proud.
Ron is proud.
We did this for Ron.
I want to go tell him.
Okay, so that's gonna be it.
[ siren blares ]
[ crowd cheering ]
Mr. Goldman, what's your
reaction? Your reaction?
Wonderful!
I know I'm gonna be Debbie
Doomsday, but that moment didn't
last forever, because the killer
left in the courtroom just like
us and was driving around and
went to have ice cream, and then
he went about his life, and he
was a free man still.
It was bittersweet,
because Ron Goldman was dead,
Nicole Brown Simpson was dead,
and here we were celebrating.
That judgment was a piece
of paper, piece of paper that's
only as good as the paper it's
written on and that the court
offers you no assistance
in getting--getting that
judgment honored. And that's
when we decided that we were
gonna continue to go after him
for the rest of his life.
Despite all of his wealth and
luxury and privilege, he has not
paid one dime. He has refused
to honor this judgment, and we
intend to enforce it.
When he went to jail,
I sent him a card that said,
"Congratulations on your new
home," and then on the inside,
I wrote, "Hope you enjoy your
new digs. The Goldman Family."
My dad was very proud of me.
At the end of the book that
we wrote, "His Name is Ron," we
wrote the last chapter, and it
reads, if I can get through it,
"To the psychopathic coward who
murdered my son, the desire to
confront you to tell you exactly
what I think of you has simmered
and burned in me since it became
so obvious that you were guilty
of taking away from me forever
the opportunity to hug my son
and share his life and laughter.
You took from Ron
the opportunity of children and
to be the most unbelievably
wonderful father this world
could imagine. You took from Ron
the opportunity to share the
rest of his life with Kim, his
sister. You took from Ron the
love of Patti, more of a mother
to him than he ever had before.
You took from this Earth
the kind of man you never were,
never have been, and never could
be. There is nothing more to
say. You are not worth any more
of my words. You are not worth
any more of my energy.
You are not worth any more of my
passion. You are not worthy
to walk in Ron's shadow."
[ sighs ]
[ sniffs ]
I'd almost forgotten that.